Roles need to be changed to better reflect the game.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Trinity is fine, lower DPS checks and increase tank danger for more defensive itemization.
Let mechanics be interesting/difficult, numbers game secondary to that.

This, indeed. Quite frankly, I would love seeing fights where bosses constant vary their attack pattern, thus forcing players to adapt on the fly with only the cursory knowledge of what's in the boss' arsenal, but not what it'll actually use. Basically, the less predictable they are, the better fights will be.

[Gamer3427]

While it's a repeat of FFXI in that term, it's nowhere near FFXI as a whole. PLD is probably the only class that is having this issue. More so then any others in the past due to the fact that PLDs were never supposed to be DPS. The introduction of DRK really fucked things up. It would have been nice for them to set it up so WARs were more like paper, but did more damage while PLDs were built like rocks, but did little damage. They could make the tanks swap and do their thing and have people figure out how to make it work. On the other hand DRKs and their players like maxing their DPS which is only fueling WARs in wanting to keep tanks as DPSs. It's insane. They need to introduce bosses like Absolute Virtue. That'll teach the community.

I hate to break it to you, but the introduction of DRK didn't screw anything up. PLD is the defensive tank, WAR is the offensive tank, and DRK is the middle ground that can do both, but not as good as either of the other. The problem is by no means the fact that the DRK meant that there was another tank that could put out damage, it's a combination of high DPS checks in endgame content and impatient players in normal content. Everyone wants to rush through content as quickly as possible, and as such they push for everyone to "have" to DPS, and because PLD in particular doesn't have high DPS they pushed STR build WARs to try and clear content 1min quicker. DRK just happened to be there when WAR got turned into even more of a DPS powerhouse, but it's not to blame. People would still be pushing STR build WARs, since 3.0 content started upping the health of enemies by a lot.....

Also, as someone who's secondary is a healer, I personally can't stand STR build WARs. I'll take a low DPS PLD who I don't have to babysit constantly over a high DPS WAR that has the defenses of wet tissue paper, any day. WARs may have higher VIT, but particularly when they're stacking STR equipment and not boosting said VIT even further, they can reach a point where they're literally taking damage faster than it can be healed. I've had plenty of times where WARs would cause me to use all my cooldowns to barely keep them alive, while doing a pull that PLDs and DRKs manage with me just letting Eos heal them while I DPS. Don't get me wrong, I've had some WARs that were actually defensible, and I've had plenty of PLDs and DRKs that were bad, but the number of WARs that were hard to keep up far exceed the number of tanks I've had trouble with of the other classes.....

Again though, the problem is people wanting faster content, and to have easier clears on DPS checks, rather than a problem with the way the classes are balanced. Right now, we don't have content that is focused on healers needing to heal, (barring mistakes or bad players), or tanks needing to be particularly good at surviving or holding aggro, (barring bad healers or DPS with greatly superior gear). The idea of "hard" content right now is almost exclusively high DPS checks, which means that instead of expecting the DPS to do their jobs, players expect the tanks and healers who are having an easy time with their "role" to pick up the slack for the DPS. Don't get me wrong though, as a DPS that puts my all into my role and does considerable damage, I'm still grateful for Tanks and Healers DPSing, because SE has made enemies such beef gates, and some DPS checks so heavy, that if we didn't have the other roles helping us then we'd be having to put in several times as much effort as the other roles have to. This is purely because of how SE has handled the content, by making DPS checks that simply can't be met by DPS players alone.....

I'm also aware that in a way, this isn't SE's fault. It's the community's fault as much as anything because as long as tanks and healers have the ability to DPS, (which is a necessity for solo content), then players will be demanding that those roles DPS as often as possible. The result is that DPS checks that can be met by just the DPS players, are easily demolished if the healers and tanks DPS as well. However, my experience with the PvP aspect of this game has also showed me that removing the ability to DPS with these roles, (specifically healers in this case), means that players simply won't play it because many of them view it as "boring" to heal. I haven't played a whole lot of the PvP, but in all the games I did play of it, I only saw a healer on my side once, while tanks were almost as common as the DPS. The only real solution in endgame content is to make it be more mechanic heavy, with design aspects that are implemented specifically to force tanks to tank and healers to heal, such as high damage, aggro increasing mechanics on non-tanks, status effects that need to be healed off, ect. We see a little bit of this in most content, but rarely enough to force these players to stay with the "role" that they're supposedly filling. This simply becomes more evident in statics, where players are communicating and working to improve rather than DF groups not having a clue what to do.....

EDIT: This is just the two gil I have on the subject matter as interpreted by my sleep addled mind....

[Kuwagami]

Tank ---> DPS that can take hits
Healer ---> DPS that can heal
DPS ---> DPS that can't meet DPS checks without the other two roles DPSing.

heh. I've been saying that for months (since AS's Faust joke in fact) in game, on reddit and on these forums, only to be met with criticism and the usual "git gud" comments. Good luck convincing people.

I've already given up and play around with my DPS taking hits in unsynch'ed content because that's the only thing I can still enjoy without anyone getting on my nerves ("dps is low, please git gud tanks and heals" => eff you and do your job)

I still find it mind-boggling that people assume tanks and healers HAVE to dps. They don't.
It's only required if you want to clear content earlier than intended OR if you have to make up for dps not fullfilling their role.
When AS came out, everyone ran off with ilvl180-190, wondering why they couldn't meet enrage timers. Instead of stopping to think and realizing that MAYBE that's working as intented, as in, this content was never supposed to be cleared until people got better gear and learned to play their classes to their full potential, everyone just turned tanks and healers into dps to meet dps checks that were never meant to be cleared that way....and then proceeded to complain to SE that tanks and healers "have to" dps to clear AS...

Tell me more about i210 gear not being enough to clear raids giving i210 rewards...

i190 was the enrry level gear for the raid. That means AS1 was tuned for i190, i195 at best. I do not know any group at i190 that could get past faust without both heals dps'ing as much as they could without having the tank dead and at least the OT in full dps mode, if not both tanks

[Felis]

Tell me more about i210 gear not being enough to clear raids giving i210 rewards...

i190 was the enrry level gear for the raid. That means AS1 was tuned for i190, i195 at best. I do not know any group at i190 that could get past faust without both heals dps'ing as much as they could without having the tank dead and at least the OT in full dps mode, if not both tanks

AS came together with eso gear (i200, not i210) ingame. So maybe eso gear was intended as entry gear for AS?

[Krylo]

If you already have an aggro lead, what is more difficult about using your DPS rotation instead of your aggro rotation as a tank? How is it harder to know when a fight is going to have a low damage phase to swap to your DPS stance as a tank, than it is to understand where every break and PBAoE is in a fight as DPS and plan your cooldowns around them? How is it more difficult as a healer to realize everyone is topped off and there's no tank buster coming immediately, so it's time to swap to cleric stance and toss out a couple of attack spells, than it is for a DPS to keep track of every CD and rotation?

A tank or a healer not helping DPS is lazy. They're doing the bare minimum. They're no better at their jobs than the DPS pulling 300 in full 200 gear--just enough to get the casual content done.

Have you guys paid attention to healers who don't DPS or played one? Have you seen how often they're just standing there doing literally nothing for multiple GCDs? Have you ever played tank and noticed how little you actually have to do on most pulls and fights past the beginning? Hell, when I tank things sometimes I joke around with the party that I enjoy it because once I build my aggro I can just stand around and talk popping the occasional CD.

If your idea of 'the class I want to play' is a class where you can get up during the fight to go make a sandwich and come back after spamming your AoE threat for a couple GCDs on most pulls, and you're pissed off that the DPS meta isn't letting you do that anymore--maybe you're the problem?

[Loki]

@OP
As scholar i'm happy to be able to heal/dps i find it exciting and fun not stressful. If you feel stressed by a job so this job isn't for you imo. If i wasn't able to dps too, god it would be so borring....i cannot understand all those healers who prefer wait and cast one cure every 20 sec like a robot instead of using all the skills they can IF the situation allows it.

It's the same for tanks who use all str accessories and stand in dps stance even if they are "tanking" a big pack of mobs or a boss who hits really hard without using a single defensive skill....

It's not the game the main trouble but the people who doesn't use their brain enough and adapt their gameplay in function of the others / situation and do what they do cause "it's like that this thing has to be done".

Lots of time, in diffrent parties, the general dps was low, people weren't really well geared / or well geared but didn't know their job / or were lazy etc and it was long to defeat just 2 mobs, but the tank pulled big packs and it was taking eternity, i had to spam cures, dps had none TP etc etc so i asked each time why the tank pulled so much mobs, what was the goal of it if we weren't able to manage it effectively.
The answer : "cause we have to do it like that" ok.....

People have to adapt their behavior to others/situation and to the game, not the contrary.....

[Harlow]

So tell me exactly why it's not stressful for a WHM to be switching in and out of cleric stance while keeping a party alive with a tank that uses all STR accessories, but lacks the knowledge to use cooldowns properly with DPS who easily pull off the tank because the tank is under the assumption that "m-muh dps" is the most important thing.

As a healer this is a bit of a nightmare scenario, sure, but you'd basically just heal at that point right? I love smashing stuff up on my SCH but faced with a tank that is literally awful in all ways there's not much else to be done. I doubt the DPS would get mad at you for babysitting the tank here.

I love to DPS but I get that it can be a bit too much for some folks and that's cool too. Luckily outside of Alex Savage you really don't need to, right? Just do your best and if anyone gets mad at you for that then it's probably more of a problem with them than anything else.

@OP
As scholar i'm happy to be able to heal/dps i find it exciting and fun not stressful. If you feel stressed by a job so this job isn't for you imo. If i wasn't able to dps too, god it would be so borring...

This too. If I wasn't allowed to DPS in EX roulette or any other thing that I've done 1,000 times I'd lose it. I don't think there's anything bad about allowing a job to have more depth if the player wants to go beyond its basic function. The suggestions to just have the monsters do way more damage so healers CAN'T DPS are pretty lame. I don't have much desire to just target the tank and smack the same 3 keys over and over until the fight's done when it comes to trash mobs.

[Kuwagami]

AS came together with eso gear (i200, not i210) ingame. So maybe eso gear was intended as entry gear for AS?

That would be the first raid not allowing you to go in in entry gear (aka, gear available before. Entry gear for AS was Alexander normal mode gear, ie i190). Not that it exactly is a bad thing for raid longevity, but that would put AS3 requirement above i210 which is stupid given the clear rewards.

Also, going in full i200 still requires a good dps from your tanks, and some bits from your healers.

So both are still required to dps. Point still standing

If you already have an aggro lead, what is more difficult about using your DPS rotation instead of your aggro rotation as a tank? How is it harder to know when a fight is going to have a low damage phase to swap to your DPS stance as a tank, than it is to understand where every break and PBAoE is in a fight as DPS and plan your cooldowns around them? How is it more difficult as a healer to realize everyone is topped off and there's no tank buster coming immediately, so it's time to swap to cleric stance and toss out a couple of attack spells, than it is for a DPS to keep track of every CD and rotation?

A tank or a healer not helping DPS is lazy. They're doing the bare minimum. They're no better at their jobs than the DPS pulling 300 in full 200 gear--just enough to get the casual content done.

Have you guys paid attention to healers who don't DPS or played one? Have you seen how often they're just standing there doing literally nothing for multiple GCDs? Have you ever played tank and noticed how little you actually have to do on most pulls and fights past the beginning? Hell, when I tank things sometimes I joke around with the party that I enjoy it because once I build my aggro I can just stand around and talk popping the occasional CD.

If your idea of 'the class I want to play' is a class where you can get up during the fight to go make a sandwich and come back after spamming your AoE threat for a couple GCDs on most pulls, and you're pissed off that the DPS meta isn't letting you do that anymore--maybe you're the problem?

Maybe if the game was well designed for the trinity (aka tanks and healers can't stand still doing nothing on a regular basis) this wouldn't be a problem.

Nerf tank damage output so that they have to really keep hate, increase mobs damage (constant damage, not tank busters) so that healers have to heal instead of regen/afk and main tanks have to stay in tank stance, leaving dps stance for OT situations only.

Trinity restaured, meta fixed from "dps onry" to "tank-heal-dps".

Side effect : people bitching because now they can't be a dps with faster queues in duty finder. (Also healers who actually loved to dps even when they aren't forced to do it while barely keeping the group alive. Sorry for them. They'll be able to dps in duties they utterly overgear within 2 patches or less)

[RyuRoots]

The biggest problem I think is how the utter stupidity of the design of the current endgame bleeds down into casual content where you DON'T need everyone to go all dps all the time. This is why you get full STR tanks with low defense who are just incredibly annoying to heal and the only benefit is shaving maybe a few minutes off the overall time (and actually it actively slows down some bosses since they ignore mechanics because "hurr muh dps" while the dps, ironically, pay more attention).

[Krylo]

Maybe if the game was well designed for the trinity (aka tanks and healers can't stand still doing nothing on a regular basis) this wouldn't be a problem.

Nerf tank damage output so that they have to really keep hate, increase mobs damage (constant damage, not tank busters) so that healers have to heal instead of regen/afk and main tanks have to stay in tank stance, leaving dps stance for OT situations only.

It's funny how this has never come up until the meta changed, expecting tanks and healers to do more than stand around--despite the fact that the game was always like this. Healers can DPS in dungeons straight from level 15 on, and tanks only hit a couple rocky areas where tanking is actually hard. And at 50? Tanks and healers have always been able to be lazy and do nothing for swathes of time.

Yet it's only recently, when the DPS meta started its trickle down from raiders that people started asking for fights to be designed 'more for the trinity'.

No, you're not fooling me--if you actually wanted tanking and healing to be challenging roles, people would have been asking for these things right after launch. If SE were to actually nerf tank damage, and increase mob damage across the board the same people complaining about having to DPS now would be complaining about how they can't stop healing ever, or how hard it is to hold aggro against any DPS who knows their job. Because it'd be even more stressful than DPSing is now.