3.1 PLD Changes

[SpookyGhost]

I dare anyone to try and prove me wrong. Come up with ANY scenario that PLD would be preferable to DrK.

A job doesn't need to be preferable over another for X fight to be balanced. As long as all tanks can clear the content, then all tanks are viable, which is all that's really necessary. The problem was that the disparity in DPS between PLD and the other tanks lead to PLD being unable to clear content in the same gear that DRK/WAR could. PLD, with the current gear available (especially in 3.1), can clear everything. If played correctly, they won't be holding anyone back because the DPS check will be met. Yes, DRK/WAR makes it easier, but that doesn't mean it's absolutely necessary to bring DRK/WAR atm. During early progression, yes - but now? Nah.

In terms of clearing content, PLD itself has no problems atm due to the gear boosting it's effectiveness to "good enough". In the future, in 3.2, PLD could face some troubles if we have the same strict DPS checks... however, based on the information we've been given, it sounds like tank DPS as a whole is being reworked and we could see even larger sweeping changes to the meta.

Basically, the TP change right now is fine. A DPS change isn't actually needed in 3.1 as it will have no effect on PLD's current ability to clear a fight. PLD can, and has, cleared everything now.

[raymon]

A job doesn't need to be preferable over another for X fight to be balanced. As long as all tanks can clear the content, then all tanks are viable, which is all that's really necessary. The problem was that the disparity in DPS between PLD and the other tanks lead to PLD being unable to clear content in the same gear that DRK/WAR could. PLD, with the current gear available (especially in 3.1), can clear everything. If played correctly, they won't be holding anyone back because the DPS check will be met. Yes, DRK/WAR makes it easier, but that doesn't mean it's absolutely necessary to bring DRK/WAR atm. During early progression, yes - but now? Nah.
.

In terms of clearing content, PLD itself has no problems atm due to the gear boosting it's effectiveness to "good enough". In the future, in 3.2, PLD could face some troubles if we have the same strict DPS checks... however, based on the information we've been given, it sounds like tank DPS as a whole is being reworked and we could see even larger sweeping changes to the meta.

Basically, the TP change right now is fine. A DPS change isn't actually needed in 3.1 as it will have no effect on PLD's current ability to clear a fight. PLD can, and has, cleared everything now

i feel like its more long the lines of people want it to be changed asap so its not a big concern for 3.2

[Syzygian]

I want to see dual-pld 4-caster a4s clears

[Ashkendor]

Gonna be honest, if your raid is hurting for DPS at this point in the game in A3S then it's not a job choice issue. If you switch to DRK/WAR now, that DPS issue will persist in A4S and there won't be any job changing work-arounds. It's better for your group to improve than try and squirt Elmer's glue all over the problem. DRK MT/PLD OT is the best choice for that composition, you'll get higher DPS and DRK won't have any trouble holding aggro. It'll also free up your CDs quite a bit for hand phase, add phase, and the final phase.

It is partly a job choice issue though. We have basically the worst possible raid composition for A3S right now - PLD/DRK, WHM/AST, and no NIN. We're completely missing out on the slashing debuff along with trying to figure out how to handle healer DPS. If the AST does it, the DPS seems negligible. If the WHM does it, the DPS is better but people die. Mind you, we've only been in there a week now (technically two but our scholar suddenly quit last week so we've been trying to replace) but we're running into the same wall over and over again. I know we'll get better at the fight as we practice the mechanics more, but right now I honestly just kind of feel like dead weight any time low DPS numbers are brought up and that's a terrible feeling to have.

Dunno, I'm going to level WAR either way, and we're going to try the DRK as MT this next week and see how things go.

[CoolCat]

Hrmmm thats rather offputting with just a tp fix. I at least hope for better enmity gain or some form of better aoe. Dps aside, PLD in a dungeon just doesn't do as well as WAR or DRK. Not saying PLD couldn't do it, but not really fair is what I feel. Say I go solo into a dungeon and WAR or DRK can just aoe everything, when I go as PLD I was like well this is lame. Got some extra eos and the tank accessory will can at least go onto my DRK. Been debating on going to DRK for awhile, this might push it.

[Isius]

snip

Sorry Spooky, but I can not find myself to agree with you at all. Everything you said is avoiding the current problems, and changing nothing only makes it worst over the long run. So postponing changes to 3.2 and see if anything does change is a very raw deal for Plds that already waited 5 months. Pld players are looking for balance, because as of right now it is clear there is no balance among the tanks. People with any insight already know even if 3.2 raids are physical heavy pld will still be left behind. SE stripped the core mechanics of tanks out in HW. There will never be any meaningful dmg to mitigation as a tank...look at us now tanking without our tank stances. It plainly shows dmg inflicted on tanks is weaker then it has ever been in this game. The only way Pld will have any influence in a raid again is if the other tanks just outright die, and Pld is the only class that can survive. But that only leaves us back to 2.0 war scenario...warriors were viable back then too you know, when they overgeared for it. So should we go back the a system were Pld is the only tank for current raid, and War/Drk are only viable when they overgeared for it? Right now you are saying the samething to plds, and telling them to wait till they get more gear, or now they have to wait till 3.2 is really not going to cut it.

Only difference now it is a dps issue, and not a tank issue. Tanking is the whole package of a tank class not just it's tankiness or it's dps, everything. Right now Pld fails at dps, and useful raid utility, while 2.0 warrior lacked tankiness. 2.0 warrior needed buffs, and so does pld now.

[SpookyGhost]

You're assuming everything will stay exactly the same post-3.1, even though we know we're getting sweeping changes. If things stayed exactly the same as they are now, including damage on tanks, then yeah not fixing PLD at all will put it in the same position it is now where it takes a significant amount of overgearing to be "good enough" for content that DRK/WAR could do much, much earlier. However, the only thing changes in 3.1 affect are PLD's viability in Savage Alex - content they already overgear extremely and 3.1 will only make it easier to overgear with Void Ark, Island Exploration, and Thordan EX. If PLD still couldn't do the content at that point of overgearing then we'd have an issue needing to be solved, but because gear does alleviate the problem then there's no need for a DPS increase at the moment.

What people want is a DPS increase out of fear of incoming content being unclearable by PLD once again with lower gear levels, which was understandable and I was 100% behind. But now that we know things are changing, that fear shouldn't be as rampant as it was. If PLDs aren't currently clearing A1S-A4S it's not a problem with the job, it's a problem with the player.

Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not really 100% sure myself if my words ring true, but if a DPS increase were implemented now what would that do besides make PLD more viable at lower gear levels for Alex Savage when everyone already has access to gear far beyond that point? Maybe it would quell some fears for the future, but I think they could do that by simply explaining the changes coming in 3.2 since I imagine if they're changing the damage formula for tanks entirely then all 3 tank jobs' DPS will change drastically one way or the other.

[Syzygian]

snip'

Lol if you clear with that comp please plaster a recording of it everywhere on the internet cause that is just fuckin heroic bruh.

[Exodus_Kenpachi]

Snipity snip snip

HOLY FUCKING SHIT HE GETS IT!!!

Oh thank you baby Jesus...I was starting to think nobody understood my perspective.

[Jpec07]

...and we're going to try the DRK as MT this next week and see how things go.

By my understanding, this should help quite a bit. PLD suffers more than any other tank from staying in their tank stance right now, and our DPS in Shield Oath is pitiful. However, when you compare parses of PLD and DRK in their DPS stances, they're very close to even.

The biggest problem is that A3S and A4S are such huge DPS checks that any time a PLD needs to stay in Shield Oath is going to be a detriment. But this isn't a problem with the job so much as it is a problem with the design of the encounters. Low tank damage + huge DPS race = hell for PLD - and SE is realizing this. We're a square peg trying to fit round hole. We're the tank that soaks damage like no other. But the fights right now don't need that--they need tanks that can give as good as they get.

I'm sure that if the discrepancy isn't solved in 3.1 and 3.2, they'll begin to rework our numbers to fix it, but for now, they're taking baby steps (and honestly? Coming from WoW where they overcompensated for just about everything? I far prefer this approach).