3.1 PLD Changes

**Isius** · 11-06-2015 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

snip

Sorry Spooky, but I can not find myself to agree with you at all. Everything you said is avoiding the current problems, and changing nothing only makes it worst over the long run. So postponing changes to 3.2 and see if anything does change is a very raw deal for Plds that already waited 5 months. Pld players are looking for balance, because as of right now it is clear there is no balance among the tanks. People with any insight already know even if 3.2 raids are physical heavy pld will still be left behind. SE stripped the core mechanics of tanks out in HW. There will never be any meaningful dmg to mitigation as a tank...look at us now tanking without our tank stances. It plainly shows dmg inflicted on tanks is weaker then it has ever been in this game. The only way Pld will have any influence in a raid again is if the other tanks just outright die, and Pld is the only class that can survive. But that only leaves us back to 2.0 war scenario...warriors were viable back then too you know, when they overgeared for it. So should we go back the a system were Pld is the only tank for current raid, and War/Drk are only viable when they overgeared for it? Right now you are saying the samething to plds, and telling them to wait till they get more gear, or now they have to wait till 3.2 is really not going to cut it.

Only difference now it is a dps issue, and not a tank issue. Tanking is the whole package of a tank class not just it's tankiness or it's dps, everything. Right now Pld fails at dps, and useful raid utility, while 2.0 warrior lacked tankiness. 2.0 warrior needed buffs, and so does pld now.

**Syzygian** · 11-06-2015 04:31 AM

No one was saying that, at least not that i saw. I was saying that if a raid group has made it to A3s with a drk/pld comp they should just keep it but let the drk mt.

All of pld's utilities are far less clunky to use while oting and drk has some serious godmode happening with mt dps if healers can allow them to keep grit off.

**Exodus_Kenpachi** · 11-06-2015 04:38 AM

Originally Posted by Syzygian

No one was saying that, at least not that i saw.

First page... The guy I was blowing up for saying to put PLD as OT and call it a day and that the class is fine and only people who bandwagon are calling for PLD buffs.

As for the all the other stuff I was saying is more in response to Yoshi P saying that they feel PLD is just in a bad spot because of current content. Which is wrong... Dead fucking wrong... Almost as wrong as saying 2.0 WAR is just fine and that people are just playing the class wrong. People need to stop looking to Yoshi P for the end all be all about balance...there have been numerous times he has said some straight up stupid shit that was then directly contradicted by his dev team.

**CoolCat** · 11-06-2015 05:52 AM

Hrmmm thats rather offputting with just a tp fix. I at least hope for better enmity gain or some form of better aoe. Dps aside, PLD in a dungeon just doesn't do as well as WAR or DRK. Not saying PLD couldn't do it, but not really fair is what I feel. Say I go solo into a dungeon and WAR or DRK can just aoe everything, when I go as PLD I was like well this is lame. Got some extra eos and the tank accessory will can at least go onto my DRK. Been debating on going to DRK for awhile, this might push it.

**SpookyGhost** · 11-06-2015 06:10 AM

You're assuming everything will stay exactly the same post-3.1, even though we know we're getting sweeping changes. If things stayed exactly the same as they are now, including damage on tanks, then yeah not fixing PLD at all will put it in the same position it is now where it takes a significant amount of overgearing to be "good enough" for content that DRK/WAR could do much, much earlier. However, the only thing changes in 3.1 affect are PLD's viability in Savage Alex - content they already overgear extremely and 3.1 will only make it easier to overgear with Void Ark, Island Exploration, and Thordan EX. If PLD still couldn't do the content at that point of overgearing then we'd have an issue needing to be solved, but because gear does alleviate the problem then there's no need for a DPS increase at the moment.

What people want is a DPS increase out of fear of incoming content being unclearable by PLD once again with lower gear levels, which was understandable and I was 100% behind. But now that we know things are changing, that fear shouldn't be as rampant as it was. If PLDs aren't currently clearing A1S-A4S it's not a problem with the job, it's a problem with the player.

Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not really 100% sure myself if my words ring true, but if a DPS increase were implemented now what would that do besides make PLD more viable at lower gear levels for Alex Savage when everyone already has access to gear far beyond that point? Maybe it would quell some fears for the future, but I think they could do that by simply explaining the changes coming in 3.2 since I imagine if they're changing the damage formula for tanks entirely then all 3 tank jobs' DPS will change drastically one way or the other.

**Yshnal** · 11-06-2015 09:03 AM

A recently leveled PLD will still have to get more gear than a WAR/DRK in order to have the same performance, unless their party is already overgeared. There's a balance issue over there and, even now, it's not going away until some changes are made. Just because it doesn't matter anymore in some situations (overgearing content), the problem is still there and can (and will) affect some players. As has been said many times we're back at what WAR suffered back in 2.0, but the other way around and with three tank jobs to choose from, instead of just two.

I've been using my DRK for a while now, but I still prefer playing with my PLD. It would be cool if I could perform equally with both given the same gear (instead of performing better with my DRK even with less gear), so that I could use my favourite job. We've been waiting for 5 months already, and 3.2 is (at least) 3 more months away. That would make 8 months with those issues being unresolved, and many new and old paladins suffering the extra effort that they need to make in order to be close to what the other two tank jobs get with less work. And I only mention 3.2 due to the gear and general dps changes, not because I think that changing the raids will solve the problem: you'll still prefer to bring the ones that make the encounter faster and easier for everyone else, unless only a PLD can survive being MT (and that would be as bad as what we have now).

**RecklessLion** · 11-06-2015 09:39 AM

PLD problem isn't dps. It's not on don't think the dps needs to be changed period. PLD needs to be the lowest in dps because it's theasy tankiest. Just the meta prefers dps over tanking. I mean WAR had this problem in the 2.0 series. They didn't even fix that really gave WAR more attacks for the most part. So when the soon to be hitting hard baddie shows up I'm confident thenough PLD will rise and depending on either magic or physical WAR or DRK will take some place in it. Only 3 problems I see with PLD. AoE, emnity, and TP issues (DRK too) they fix those PLD will be great.

**RecklessLion** · 11-06-2015 09:43 AM

PLD problem isn't dps. PLD needs to be the lowest in dps because it's theasy tankiest. Just the meta prefers dps over tanking. I mean WAR had this problem in the 2.0 series. They didn't even fix that really, but gave WAR more attacks for the most part. So when the soon to be hitting hard baddie shows up I'm confident enough PLD will rise and depending on either magic or physical WAR or DRK will take some place in it. Only 3 problems I see with PLD. AoE, emnity, and TP issues (DRK too) they fix those PLD will be great. Sorry my phone have a mind of its own.

**Brian_** · 11-06-2015 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by RecklessLion

PLD problem isn't dps. PLD needs to be the lowest in dps because it's theasy tankiest. Just the meta prefers dps over tanking. I mean WAR had this problem in the 2.0 series. They didn't even fix that really, but gave WAR more attacks for the most part. So when the soon to be hitting hard baddie shows up I'm confident enough PLD will rise and depending on either magic or physical WAR or DRK will take some place in it. Only 3 problems I see with PLD. AoE, emnity, and TP issues (DRK too) they fix those PLD will be great. Sorry my phone have a mind of its own.

They aren't the tankiest. I don't know why people keep on saying that.

**Brian_** · 11-06-2015 01:33 PM

I agree that a lot of the imbalance comes from encounter design, but even if you change the encounter design, it has to be very specifically tailor made for PLD in order for PLDs to be a desirable option. If I was a game designer, this would raise some red flags because it would severely limit design space in the future. So, I really don't see why this imbalance is allowed to continue. What's more important? The health of the game or the ego of some mediocre DRK or WAR that might lose their raid spot?

It doesn't matter if you remove the DPS checks. You actually have to make good DPS counter-productive for PLDs to be viable. An example of this is Haukke Manor HM where killing the boss too fast actually wipes your group. Another example is in certain Coil turns where you could push phases and end up with awkward transitions. Otherwise, the higher DPS of DRKs and WARs will still be an advantage. Regardless, how does it make sense to punish players for being good? It doesn't.

I don't know if it's ignorance or stupidity that causes this, but people really fail to understand the value of DPS vs. survivability. Supporters of full-VIT tank-stance-only tanks will always rely on the idea that a sturdier tank gives your group a larger margin of error. It doesn't. Even if PLD was the best defensive tank, you would need a specific situation for it to matter.

Take a look at A3S. If you have very high raid DPS, you can actually recover from a lot of mistakes. Messed up a digi pass and someone who shouldn't have DPS down has it? Someone accidentally did too much damage to the wrong hand during equal concentration? Had people die to tethers during add phase? Had your DPS linked in every ferro-fluid during add phase? Mistimed a stun on a piston and need to burst it down before it runs out? Constant heavy misses on adds because of ACC RNG? Messed up a ferro-fluid and now 2 DPS have atrophy? Don't have LB3 because of various issues or class comp for liquid limb or just to nuke the boss? I could go on, but the point I'm making is there are a lot of ways you can mess up in A3S that will result in a raid DPS loss that would wipe a group normally. But, if your raid DPS is stellar, you can still recover. So, the margin of error you gain from pushing DPS is far greater than the margin of error you gain from pushing survivability.

So, they would need to flip that paradigm on its head in order for survivability to matter. Then, they would need to tailor craft the damage intake to favor PLD -- lower but much more rapid general damage that can't be parried but can be blocked and frequently crits, physical damage raid-wide damage mechanics on a longer timer so that DV can be up for each one and RoH will contribute to raid mitigation, physical tank busters that can be consistently blocked by Sheltron, mechanics that can be trivialized with Hallowed Ground, a raid mechanic that forces the requirement of LB3 to stop groups from just bringing 2 WARs, etc.

I don't know about other people, but that degree of pigeon-holing does not feel healthy for the overall design of a game. People will demonize the idea of homogenization but homogenization of ends is not bad as long as the means are still diverse.

Just look at Defiance vs. Grit and Shield Oath. Different methodology, roughly the same resulting eHP. Achieving homogenized results through different and flavorful methods is not impossible.

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