JP server player is calling us out. Step up, NA endgamers.

[hagare]

Why is one extreme good and the other bad? No offense, but that's just as ignorant. Are you to say that one should never put any time to improving themselves and only improve everyone else? Am I to rely on someone else to help me improve? When it's about yourself, there is only yourself. When it's about everyone else, then you have a couple hundred, to a thousand, to a million. Who's turn is it to get the help to improve? Obviously I couldn't do it myself since I'm always having to help someone else improve. So do I have to take a ticket? Get in a line?

*COUGH*
willing to teach and learn

PS: you do realize that WE also includes ME right.

[Kurogaea]

I gotta say, the last time I tried to say its the community's job to help teach people how to play, I got told off.

Which says something about our players.

Its no much as the communities job, but the community should be generally leaning towards helping the playerbase in some aspect. Some of these servers are just so selfish and affixed into their own social groups (like FCs, statics and likshells) and others who are new to the game wishing to participate in content are more than likely to be ignored and discouraged. I don't know how many times a player was called out on being bad and then kicked from a party for trying to learn a fight but just couldn't understand when no one even bothered to tell them what they were doing wrong, its disgusting and our community reflects upon it.

Also telling players to watch a video to eventually be kicked out anyway because they had no hands on experience and mess up the first few times is actually very funny, as it just shows that alot of players just lack patience with others. its nothing new and people need to get over it as others would say, but thats just some of the playerbase adapting to their a#&hole behavior.

[Lewtskie]

*COUGH*
willing to teach and learn

PS: you do realize that WE also includes ME right.

Still stands, when is it my time? If I only have an hour to play do I need to flip a coin on improving myself or someone else? Who comes first? If it's me, then people complain I'm being selfish. If I'm always putting someone else in front them I'm never improving. You people seem to be sure how this works out so I'd love to know what the actual structure is to making everything all happy and perfect.

[Klamor]

Actually, the "whos time is more valuble" is one of the core issues with why the community is this way. That you are unable to see it, or take offense to it, is well, on you. Until people can admit those who expect others to do all the work for them are the biggest part of the problem, it wont change. So you can talk rainbows and butterflies all day, but until players take more ownership on themselves, instead of putting it on "endgamers", nothing will change. You prepare for the team content you join and do what you can to help, or you don't and make the rest of the team compensate for you.

Also, telling someone who disagrees with you on an open forum to move along...

The argument of time value is wholly dependent on the assumption that every new person joining a group has put forth zero effort into their responsibilities toward the group they intend to join. We know this to be untrue, but that doesn't deter the avoidance of new players. I've been in communities in other games where instead of having a single set group of whatever the raid required (8 here, 10/20/25/40 elsewhere), we had a rotating roster with benchwarmers each week. We encouraged new players by having class/job leaders that would take their own time to help coach people who were new to the roster, whether they'd been in our specific community for years, or just joined last week. That's a small scale example that fit the billet for what a guild that regularly got server first boss kills, and ranked in the top 50 in the world, needed. I don't know the logistics for implementing something similar to that on a large-scale such as an entire server, but if each of us offered up our own experience a little at a time, we'll grow as a whole. I agree with you that this also demands that the new players in question do their part and be receptive of the teaching or coaching when given.

Also, I'm not defensive. I'm here for open conversation. Your response to mine appeared to be sarcasm with the intent to degrade a positive movement. Reading the posts between these in the interim of our discussion has revealed good discussion, and I apologize that I initially took you for attacking.

[hagare]

Still stands, when is it my time? If I only have an hour to play do I need to flip a coin on improving myself or someone else? Who comes first? If it's me, then people complain I'm being selfish. If I'm always putting someone else in front them I'm never improving. You people seem to be sure how this works out so I'd love to know what the actual structure is to making everything all happy and perfect.

you're saying I'm putting things in the extreme when you're the one doing so?
I'm pretty sure you can pick when and how to do things.
When to help others and when to help yourself.
teach what you can, learn what you can't.
helping people does not mean being a doormat.
teaching people also refreshes your knowledge about the teaching material.
Maybe you won't be the one to change the community, but why don't you be the one to start?

PS: they're sure because numbers don't lie.
have you seen the number of clears between NA, JP and EU?

[Klamor]

Still stands, when is it my time? If I only have an hour to play do I need to flip a coin on improving myself or someone else? Who comes first? If it's me, then people complain I'm being selfish. If I'm always putting someone else in front them I'm never improving. You people seem to be sure how this works out so I'd love to know what the actual structure is to making everything all happy and perfect.

It seems like the general consensus would just be that if you don't have time, that's fine. The problem is when you're looking out for #1, but being a dick about it. I don't think many people would be upset if you just said "Nah, I don't really have time to help you out right now. Another time, maybe?" That's kind of the issue on both sides though. People have things to do, but most things can be handled without being shitty to each other.

[Onje]

Now sure there's still friendly and helpful players in this community as well but as op said, if you don't start accepting players and help them learn a fight then there is going to be less and less players willing to even try and you could find yourself having trouble even getting replacements.

This is very true and has been seen before in WoW's raiding scene. The "gitgud" mentality has gotten so prevailent people don't even try raiding anymore. There is now a HUGE lack of raiders since most don't ever dare to do anything more than casual pugging because they're afraid to get called out.

[Lewtskie]

you're saying I'm putting things in the extreme when you're the one doing so?
I'm pretty sure you can pick when and how to do things.
When to help others and when to help yourself.
teach what you can, learn what you can't.
helping people does not mean being a doormat.
teaching people also refreshes your knowledge about the teaching material.
Maybe you won't be the one to change the community, but why don't you be the one to start?

PS: they're sure because numbers don't lie.
have you seen the number of clears between NA, JP and EU?

But now we've hit the crux. You're telling me to pick and choose. But the issue is not everyone is certain when that time is best. Just as there are those who insist they only look out for themselves, some insist time must always be given to someone who needs help.

People are chastised and belittled for choosing to leave a DG that is marked with someone new. Is it not so that person only chose to not help then? People would demand its our job to stay and teach. Even if it's not a constraint of time, but of effort. Coming home from a 12-hour shift and I just want to blank run a DG or two before bed. I've done it before on certain Jobs, I can just put myself on auto and do great. But someone is now new and needs to know shit. I'm tired and honestly don't want to help. It's a situation as thus that the issue lies on. But it's also a very specific circumstance. Not every situation is cut and dry.

Even those of us who don't just whine and complain about issues of success in our servers, if we don't help we're considered just as much of the problem. And if I don't have some record of actions for context, any given time when someone is in need and I take that time to decide not to help I'm considered a shitlord.

I do not question statistics and results. But I do question demanded order that has no structure that is only based on feelings.

It seems like the general consensus would just be that if you don't have time, that's fine. The problem is when you're looking out for #1, but being a dick about it. I don't think many people would be upset if you just said "Nah, I don't really have time to help you out right now. Another time, maybe?" That's kind of the issue on both sides though. People have things to do, but most things can be handled without being shitty to each other.

I do love this post. But I'd be lying if I said I believed this was a perfect scenario. I've gotten word from people before in older FCs that I'm one of those "always around but doesn't ever help" types. And they wouldn't be entirely wrong. I have little time and often much to do, or at least want to do. And I admit I stay in FCs purely to talk to people every now and then. But there is a stigma that seems to attach to me. I suppose that is where most of my frustration lies.

[Vagdal]

snip

People dont get into mythic raiding anymore because they have better alternatives in form of lower difficulties. Why bother to go for much harder content demadning you to join a raid group research your class show up for raids regularily when reward for doing all that is just a slightly better stats/looks on item.

It has nothing to do with bein called out and even IF in a group of 8/20/25/40 you do get called out on doing something wrong so WHAT? Raids were always about learning encounters through practices with mistakes involved whats the big deal.
If you get an itch just because of a possibility of that happening maybe raiding is just not for you at all if you cant stomache any criticism.

Raiding has always been tied to Guilds/groups you name and that always came with set of responsibilties schedule/class reasearch/encounter knowledge/consumables etc. None of which has changed a slightest bit in past few years when it comes to doing the hardest content. The only things that did change is exclusivity has been taken out in form of other options/easier difficulties and people will always go the way of least resistance.


None of the people i know/raided with had any mentor standing over their shoulder teaching them how to play their class. We all got there ourselves through reading guides/class discussions and practice whether its a dummy or dungeon it doesnt matter.
The only thing that separates us from other people is the ability to learn some pick up things quicker some dont thats the only diffrence here. Almost anyone given time and practice can actually get decent enough results to participate in raids.

All i see here is just trying to shift blame elsewhere for your own lack ability/commitment if you want to be part of raiding group do at least the bare minimum of knowing your class beforehand instead of demanding others to do that for you. This sort of attitude is just pure selfish and has no place in any organized groups. So dont be surprised if none of us wants to deal with people like you cause all you do is demand and bring nothing else to the table.

[hagare]

le snip

You can learn the difference between not helping others and troubling others right.

Not helping is refusing a request to join a dungeon run and that's fine.

Troubling others is signing up for a DF run and leaving after seeing a new player announcement and that's not fine. That is a matter of commitment and responsibility when you decide to do DF and you know it. And this is also one of the steps to improve the community.

Yes, helping others does take time from your personal time. No, you are not obligated to do so no matter what others says about you.

If you don't have time to make a learnng PF, it's alright.
You know your own schedule better than anyone else.

In short, not helping is fine, troubling other people is not.