What they mean by "change the damage calculations of tanks"?

[Tyrial]

Pentamelds are a bit more powerful than that. An i150 accessory has roughly 2/3rd the primary stat of an i210 accessory resulting in pentamelds that are roughly 33% better than the highest ilevel gear available.

This only holds true while you still need the VIT that the pentamelds provide. Once your left side is upgraded sufficiently to no longer need the extra VIT full slaying is superior.

[Alahra]

Pentamelds are a bit more powerful than that. An i150 accessory has roughly 2/3rd the primary stat of an i210 accessory resulting in pentamelds that are roughly 33% better than the highest ilevel gear available.

Well, yes, the total value of primary stats on them is better. I only meant middle of the road in the sense that they provide both some DPS and some HP (but not as much DPS as Slaying and not as much HP as Fending).

[Gorlioliolio]

Someone in my fc just came up with a pretty good idea for this, add a riposte/reflect type effect to parry where it returns the amount of damage that you parried to the attacker. Have it cap at 10% of your max hp, so right now PLD/DRK is around 22k with food, the only times you would hit the max damage would be big attacks (melees in a3 are 3kish except for the hand, cleaves hit much harder though). This would make stacking vit/parry a viable option for an MT to be able to contribute to the dps while also helping with the agro lost from losing strength. Allowing us to finally feel more tanky while at the same time our dps doesn't suffer too much.

The only issue is you would essentially kill your off tank dps in tank swap fights, personally I would love to see something like this though so parry is actually useful.

[ManaKing]

So let me get this straight. It's okay for us to sit in front of the boss and do bare minimum DPS, turtle in tank stance and pop a CD every now and then for a buster. While the healers not only heal us, and do mechanics, but also stance dance for cleric stance to push out a ton of DPS, while the DPS does mechanics as well.

It's not okay for healers to just heal but it's okay for tanks to just tank? That seems kind of like a double standard.

Your Healer gears for max heals and max DPS, that's what cleric stance does, you just have to toggle it when appropriate to play your job to the fullest.

You only gear for maximum DPS and effectively take away their ability to DPS because they can't justify jumping into cleric stance because you'll fall over too fast and make them look incompetent for playing their job to the max.

Your statistical DPS boosts aren't worth their complete exclusion from the DPS portion of their character. The Double Standard is you not letting them play their job the way they want by making an assumption on your gear. If you go for Double Melds you can stance dance and so can they. Double melds are the best you can do to allow yourself and your healers to max your performances without excluding one of you from actually playing the game.

If your healer straight up says, "nope I don't DPS, I only heal" then sure you can start making those assumptions. But I play with healers who actually DPS and enjoy it. They put out solid numbers and help with enrages.

From my point of view, you're just an EPEEN bully. Your play experience is no different than if you were in full VIT. You'd still stance dance if you wanted to increase DPS and the only difference that STR gear makes is how large the numbers are and how long a healer can go before they need to heal you.

SE's statement that tanks need to not be the only job that gets singled out for luxury gearing to help raids progress is indicative of fairness for all, not just for EPEEN tanks.

If you don't like my hyperbole then you really shouldn't have thrown it all over your statements. It gives me the idea that you're ok with a discussion that is just black and white.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Your Healer gears for max heals and max DPS, that's what cleric stance does, you just have to toggle it when appropriate to play your job to the fullest.

You only gear for maximum DPS and effectively take away their ability to DPS because they can't justify jumping into cleric stance because you'll fall over too fast and make them look incompetent for playing their job to the max.

Your statistical DPS boosts aren't worth their complete exclusion from the DPS portion of their character. The Double Standard is you not letting them play their job the way they want by making an assumption on your gear. If you go for Double Melds you can stance dance and so can they. Double melds are the best you can do to allow yourself and your healers to max your performances without excluding one of you from actually playing the game.

If your healer straight up says, "nope I don't DPS, I only heal" then sure you can start making those assumptions. But I play with healers who actually DPS and enjoy it. They put out solid numbers and help with enrages.

From my point of view, you're just an EPEEN bully. Your play experience is no different than if you were in full VIT. You'd still stance dance if you wanted to increase DPS and the only difference that STR gear makes is how large the numbers are and how long a healer can go before they need to heal you.

SE's statement that tanks need to not be the only job that gets singled out for luxury gearing to help raids progress is indicative of fairness for all, not just for EPEEN tanks.

If you don't like my hyperbole then you really shouldn't have thrown it all over your statements. It gives me the idea that you're ok with a discussion that is just black and white.

I'd much rather the tank go full dps then the healer. It is much safer to have a healer paying attention to health bars then trying to think about DPS.

Why? Because its much easier to tank and dps then heal and dps. Every time you toggle your cleric stance your no longer looking at health bars as much because your now doing a DPS rotation, this means that if the tank is introuble you would not know.

It is always better for the healer to be mostly a full healer and use his dps stuff only when the monster isn't attacking or he just doesn't need to heal.

Bla bla bla, i'm tired now you get the point.

[Kaisinel]

So what I have got so far on this intellectual discussion is tanks who wear slaying accessories or pentamelded accesories (because they would rather spend gil on being good and not glamour which is apparently real endgame) are EPEEN bullies (lol at that guy) to healers who would rather DPS instead of healing their tanks or can't keep up due to their retarded dps who refuse to do mechanics and tunnel vision? The later is 90% of the population mind you.

Just let me know if I missed anything important cause I think I'm spot on.

[Nadirah]

What utility does DRG have before Battle Litany? Disembowel? I mean, WAR has a slashing debuff, could still bring 7 WARs and have more or less the same damage/utility.

Pierce resist down?

[Nadirah]

Don't need to make slaying not equippable by tanks if STR no longer does anything for them.

I can put on aiming accessories despite DEX doing nothing. Same with healing, casting...

And ignore Talathion already.

[Ultimatecalibur]

This only holds true while you still need the VIT that the pentamelds provide. Once your left side is upgraded sufficiently to no longer need the extra VIT full slaying is superior.

That does not change the fact that they were identified as the primary reason for FCoB and Alex(S) to be cleared faster than intended.

Well, yes, the total value of primary stats on them is better. I only meant middle of the road in the sense that they provide both some DPS and some HP (but not as much DPS as Slaying and not as much HP as Fending).

I don't see them rebalancing things that way. I doubt Tank max hp will be decreasing, but I do expect the damage gap between full Fending and full Slaying to shrink to something more sane.

Currently the gap when switching between Vit and Str accessories at i210 is an increase of ~30% Str (~770 to ~1000) at a cost of ~25% max hp (20k to 15k). This is an incredibly large increase for what some would consider a fairly cheap cost.

[Freyyy]

snip

Except that a full STR tank will not completely disable the healer's ability to DPS. It will just lower it at most and not for much compared to what the tank gains. It's also better to optimize tank DPS rather than healer DPS if you really had to choose for very simple reasons :

- Tanks have 100% damage uptime
- Healer accuracy sucks ass in a fashion that you can even miss in Fractal Continuum (happens to me when I run ex roulettes as SCH). And yeah crafted accessories can make up for a part of that, but you still can't reach the accuracy cap and will keep missing anyway. This sole reason makes healer DPS a little bit unreliable
- Healers need to actually completely stop their primary duty in order to start DPSing, where tanks can just do both at the same time.
- The healing needed in raid fights is mostly from raid wide damage or mechanic damage on other players than the tank. A tank being tankier only reduces the amount of healing needed on himself. Tank damage is ridiculously low in this set of raid, a tank having less VIT or tanking in DPS stance doesn't really increase the amount of overall healing needed, thus not hindering healer DPS at all.
- Tanks are damage dealing jobs. They have DPS rotations and damage-boosting abilities. They have much more DPS than healers and their damage output is actually reliable. The DPS gain from a tank > the DPS gain from a healer.

Stop speaking like a tank DPSing prevents the healer from DPSing too, that's a completely false assumption and an excuse for poorly skilled healers to not DPS or to hate on DPSing tanks on forums.

With that said, I raid with healers who both love DPSing too. For Savage raiding, we tanks are gearing for both HP and DPS for only one reason : we need a "safety" threshold in order to survive big attacks. Everything else we put on STR. It has nothing to do with "balancing healer and tank DPS" or whatever. It's "making so that the tank survives everything, then optimize his DPS. Healers go DPS when healing isn't needed". More VIT than necessary on a tank will never decrease the amount of overall healing needed in a fight and a tank stance-dancing will have his tank stance up for damage that matters, the 20% more damage he will take from not having its tank stance the rest of the time is negligible and he should be using CDs to compensate.
I also occasionally play SCH, tho not in Savage for instance. But everytime I run experts or stuff like that, I love going full ham on DPS and I always deal almost the same amount of damage regardless of how the tank is geared or stance-dances unless he is terribad and doesn't use any CD, which is then poor gameplay and is actually the same whether the tank is full VIT or full STR.

Tank DPS doesn't hinder healer DPS in any way if done correctly.

Now let's get back to the original thread's point.