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  1. #1
    Player
    Rbstr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    512
    Character
    Robin Ster
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Xenosan View Post
    Changing to a VIT modifier doesn't change anything from their perspective, it only make things easier for players. I think SE is struggling right now with raid design because they can't predict and account for tank DPS. How could you when aggressive tanks are pushing 800+ per raid and timid tanks stay at ~400-500? The range is so wide, my guess is they want to narrow that gap.
    I agree on this point. What they want to do is make it predictable.

    but I don't agree here at all.
    Simplest and easiest way to do that is just throw a hard cap on tank's STR scaling. No I'm not vouching for it, I don't want to see a change like that.. But frankly what else would provide results of significant change.
    You forget about how arbitrary issues of DPS really are in balance. It's about ratios rather than absolute magnitudes.
    500dps into 1000hp is the same as 2dps into 4hp.
    Tanks doing 600dps vs DPS that do 1000dps is the same as Tanks doing 6000 and DPS doing 10000.

    You have one caveat in that if tank damage approaches DPS-class damage close enough you might obsolete the DPS classes.
    Otherwise the actual number the tank puts out are irrelevant as long as they are predictable.
    If damage is consistent all the devs have to do is adjust HP values/dps checks with that in mind.

    The best way to get it to flatten out is to just make it so stats scale like all of the other classes: Make the class care only about one primary stat and give it the other one for "free". For DPS that's mind/int/str/dex to care about and the vit on the left side with the ability to need on the correct primary stat gear. So for tanks that can either be putting strength on fending accessories instead of vit or changing their damage stat to vit. Both of those things sort it out automatically. Or even inventing a new stat to slap on instead of strength and putting that on fending accessories.
    Everything else is just using the newly predictable dps numbers for future content balance (Because those options wouldn't actually change any previous content. We already had strength tanks doing that stuff!)

    edit: You could also role lock accessories and thus limit tanks to vit stuff. But that's a wholesale nerf to damage and those are rarely ever good options.
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    Last edited by Rbstr; 10-27-2015 at 03:27 AM.

  2. #2
    Player
    Xenosan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,021
    Character
    Goffard Gaffgarion
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 73
    Quote Originally Posted by Rbstr View Post
    but I don't agree here at all. You forget about how arbitrary issues of DPS really are in balance. It's about ratios rather than absolute magnitudes.
    I hate embellishing my worst-case scenario fear here, but the mention of ratios actually reinforces another reason why they'd have a bilateral nerf to tank DPS. The higher the DPS contribution of tanks, the greater the significance of the DPS imbalance between the 3 tank jobs (specifically that difference's relevance to the rest of the raid). If all tanks suffered the same DPS nerf via damage calculation, then their max DPS potential relative to each other remains the same, but the ratio does change for rest of the raid.

    Hypothetical 50% DPS nerf:
    WAR 900, PLD 700, Bard 1,000
    Post scaling adjustment
    WAR 450, PLD 350, Bard 1,000

    The Ratio between WAR/PLD DPS is the same, but only half of what it was in relation to that Bard. When you cut down the DPS of all 3 tanks via the same means (damage calculation) you are subsequently cutting down the disparity between tank job DPS (in relation to the rest of the party) by that same amount. The difference is less significant to rest of the raid. Alternatively, increasing tank DPS unilaterally via damage calculation widens the gap further.

    /Devil's Advocate.
    (0)
    Last edited by Xenosan; 10-27-2015 at 05:19 AM.

  3. #3
    Player
    Nektulos-Tuor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    2,389
    Character
    Thanatos Ravensweald
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Xenosan View Post
    I hate embellishing my worst-case scenario fear here, but the mention of ratios actually reinforces another reason why they'd nerf tank DPS. The higher the DPS contribution of tanks, the greater the significance of the DPS imbalance between the 3 tank jobs (specifically that difference's relevance to the rest of the raid). If all tanks suffered the same DPS nerf via damage calculation, then their max DPS potential relative to each other remains the same, but the ratio does change for rest of the raid.

    Hypothetical 50% DPS nerf:
    WAR 900, PLD 700, Bard 1,000
    Post scaling adjustment
    WAR 450, PLD 350, Bard 1,000

    The Ratio between WAR/PLD DPS is the same, but only half of what it was in relation to that Bard. When you cut down the DPS of all 3 tanks via the same means (damage calculation) you are subsequently cutting down the disparity between tank job DPS (in relation to the rest of the party) by that same amount. The difference is less significant to rest of the raid. Alternatively, increasing tank DPS unilaterally via damage calculation widens the gap further.

    /Devil's Advocate.
    Luckily I have other games to play and spend money on when or if that happens. I hope people have fun with their Tank ques. I will be luling.
    (1)

  4. #4
    Player
    Rbstr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    512
    Character
    Robin Ster
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Xenosan View Post
    *snip*
    I guess, I don't figure that tank DPS will remain quite so disparate between the jobs. Especially since we've heard that the Paladin will be receiving some attention in 3.1.
    ...If paladin really is getting a buff? If it's just TP changes then I'll be more worried about an overall tank buff.

    But it seems kind of nuts to me they'd add in all these tank DPS options in 3.0 only to squish it down in a big way.
    My biggest bets are:
    1. Forcing tanks what are actively tanking things to use tank stance though higher outgoing damage, super high front accuracy caps, hate tweaks or something else.
    2. Forcing tanks back into fending accessories with role-restrictions, changing the damage primary to vit, adding strength to them and/or increasing the HP thresholds.

    It might be that they don't want tank DPS quite as high as simply swapping the stats would have it and they hit the scaling factor a little bit, but a really big hit, or complicated Strength cap mechanics seem unlikely.
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