What they mean by "change the damage calculations of tanks"?

[Syzygian]

I really like the current tank meta. In HW, tank DPS scaled up and if im in full STR acc i can beat non-optimal dps players while mt/ot on dps stance. Things got so much better for me. I have ot and mt a lot at 2.X, but tanking now is so much more fun and challenging.

Your posts are worded like advertisements or endorsements for a product. o.o

I'm super curious as to how things were so poor for you pre-HW?

Tanking was super challenging in FCOB with the exception of the faceroll (for tanks) that is T11. What were you doing that lacked so much challenge? WAR sans Defiance or a PLD in SwO, in full slaying gear, could out-DPS bad DPS players in 2.x too. DPS tanking didn't appear magically out of thin air in 3.0....

Its pretty sweet that tanks can deal good DPS when you play them right but where did this attitude come from like we are entitled to it through what essentially amounts to an oversight that lets us cheese content by putting on gear not intended for our job? Of course its more efficient and (arguably) needed to clear content, but you have to know in the scope of the design and mechanics of the game that we are not meant to be wearing slaying gear to play optimally.

They'd have to modify enmity calculations with this also, I suspect, or you run into an issue with this where tank DPS increases at only 70% the rate of DPS classes. Keep that up long enough, and even the best tanks will struggle to keep aggro.

I keep seeing these enmity arguments. You people do realize that a tank can keep hate against equally geared DPS/healers in full fending gear right? If they made damage scale with VIT, even if it is only half as much as fully gearing in STR currently does, that's still 50% more enmity over what you actually need.

It's also a really fun way to tank trying to maximize my DPS, if they say.. Cut the DPS in half , there'd be no reason to play it

I'm continuously seeing this in this thread. People essentially coming out and saying that the reason they play tank is... DPS. I wear slaying and melds with the best of them but it has zero to do with me maximizing my DPS as a player; that is rests solely on my muscle memory, ability to time oGCDs properly, maximize uptime, and maintain a high level of raid awareness and optimal GCD usage. If tanks could only wear fending gear there would still be poor tank DPS and good tank DPS it would just be based on "gasp" skill and not gear.

If you go to FFLogs right now and have a look at tanking DPS leaderboards do you know what they tell you? Nothing. That's because you have no idea what gear they were wearing. Maybe they were wearing pentamelds, maybe full slaying, maybe a mix of both. Maybe they even had some fending pieces. Look at their healers... where they parsing 250 DPS combined or 650? You can't even tell who's a good player or not because there's no baseline gear level by which to measure because everybody is wearing something different depending on the needs of their group. If you look at DRGs, you can, within a certain margin, tell who is playing optimally because you can be assured that they are all packing about 200-235 STR in their right side. 30-40 point gap. With tanks that cap can be hundreds of points wide. I know tanks that raid that are HORRIBAD that wear full slaying and tanks that raid that are actually very good at their jobs that wear mostly fending or melds.

This ridiculous muddying of what is or is not optimal play is what I'm hoping squeenix does away with. Does it necessarily mean our DPS is getting nerfed into the ground? No. I don't understand why people insist on fear-mongering that this is what is at hand.

[DarioSkydragon]

Sorry if it's hard to understand what I say. English is not my primary language xD

I pentamelded my i110 accessories to play FCoB and even then switched to more parts slaying. Still, I could hardly overcome DPS, even those not optimized. Certainly bad DPS was possible to overcome.

I played as mt / ot all coils and FCoB was undoubtedly the easiest among them.

But the fact of the tanks dps are not required in these turns, meant that the vast majority of the tanks simply ignore its potential as DPS.

Now in Alex Savage, tanks and healers need to DPS, which made their lives much more challenging, both in its task of tanking / survive as the task of contributing to the DPS of the raid.

Even my friends tanks / healers who were against these attack classes now like to give DPS, and this led them to improve a lot as players.

I'm sorry for the tanks who just want to be walls, but the tank / healer current meta is much more fun for those who enter it for real.

[Syzygian]

Sorry if it's hard to understand what I say. English is not my primary language xD

I pentamelded my i110 accessories to play FCoB and even then switched to more parts slaying. Still, I could hardly overcome DPS, even those not optimized. Certainly bad DPS was possible to overcome.

I played as mt / ot all coils and FCoB was undoubtedly the easiest among them.


But the fact of the tanks dps are not required in these turns, meant that the vast majority of the tanks simply ignore its potential as DPS.

Now in Alex Savage, tanks and healers need to DPS, which made their lives much more challenging, both in its task of tanking / survive as the task of contributing to the DPS of the raid.

Even my friends tanks / healers who were against these attack classes now like to give DPS, and this led them to improve a lot as players.

I'm sorry for the tanks who just want to be walls, but the tank / healer current meta is much more fun for those who enter it for real.

Ah, I see. The thing is though, the people that were maximizing back in the days of scob and fcob are still maximizing now, and you carry that with you on the back of your skill as a player, and it transcends gear/stats. Even in coil, regardless of if you had to put on more fending gear, you still maximized your raid awareness and GCD usage to pump out as much DPS as you could in the confines of that. The assumption that tanks were just half-assing their play back then is misleading and a little insulting to tanks that were... i dunno... trying? And you did have to try at first unless you were clearing this in full i120-i130 gear. T12 is a great example of this. How easy people say T12 was is extremely telling of how geared they were when they cleared it. The Bennu DPS check was no joke.

The fact that maximizing before (like in bcob) meant mitigation and maximizing now means DPS does not make one inherently more skillful than the other. It just means "Woo! Big numbers on the screen!"

I do not think you have anything to be scared of with what SE appears to be planning. What I'm hoping is that they make it so that there is not a choice between gearsets with one being fundamentally better than the other. Who knows what they'll do. They might lock tanks into fending gear but give tank weapons a crap-ton more weapon damage or something. Your DPS might go down a bit from what it was in full slaying, but still WAY more than the equivalent in full fending, AND you'll have more HP, which means healers will get more of a chance to maximize their DPS as well, and we won't have this stigma in the game attached to our gear. Your skill as a player still matters and always does no matter what gear you are wearing, and lets be real here, most of the stunts us tanks pull in slaying gear ride on the skill of our healers, as much, if not more than our own. Yet we talk about it with such pride which I just do. not. under. stand. Its like check out my insane skills as I click this slaying gear onto my character sheet! Its a fallacy to assume a player cannot maximize their actual in-combat play based on limitations of gear.

[DarioSkydragon]

and lets be real here, most of the stunts us tanks pull in slaying gear ride on the skill of our healers, as much, if not more than our own. Yet we talk about it with such pride which I just do. not. under. stand. Its like.

You're right about that. My equipment is always discussed with the healers of my group before entering a run. I do not say that your opinion is wrong. But it's your opinion. My opinion is that play tank became more challenging and fun with the whole question of stancedancing, mix str / vit equips and etc. Tanks and healers are the only roles that can get some customization in their equipment (str / vit and accuracy) beyond the traditional crit or det and it certainly improved the game for me. It existed before the HW, but my fear is that we may enter into a linearity that never even existed in the game, as melded accessories there since the time of T1.

[Ultimatecalibur]

You're right about that. My equipment is always discussed with the healers of my group before entering a run. I do not say that your opinion is wrong. But it's your opinion. My opinion is that play tank became more challenging and fun with the whole question of stancedancing, mix str / vit equips and etc. Tanks and healers are the only roles that can get some customization in their equipment (str / vit and accuracy) beyond the traditional crit or det and it certainly improved the game for me. It existed before the HW, but my fear is that we may enter into a linearity that never even existed in the game, as melded accessories there since the time of T1.

From the sounds of things, aggressive "stance dancing" tanking is unlikely to be removed and the changes to materia melding and the tank damage formula are intended to close the damage gap between Str Accessories and Vit Accessories while reducing the power of Pentamelds.

[Cynric]

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No reason to have that attitude just because people enjoy different things about tanking. I enjoy having high tank DPS to carry the bad ones and make the difference between a clear and seeing an enrage. I also noted that for me it's different. I pay PvP. My reasons for playing a tank and yours are different.

Since I am a PvPer a lack of tank dps when Dark Knight doesn't have the level of CC warrior or paladin do, playing Dark Knight would kind of be pointless if I can't even do decent damage. While yes I strength tank in pve and I enjoy doing it. I tanked in 2.0 with vitality and while it was boring to tank on paladin in lots of fights. That's more because of the lack of other things to do while tanking than doing good DPS. However at least for now I can contribute decent damage to help beat an enrage or make a run quicker.

But as far as the meta or your mindset hate or whatever. Don't lump me in with your hate. I'm a PvPer, I could care less whether you enjoy sitting in front of a boss while healers and DPS carry you or whether you enjoy pushing numbers. I just like being able to survive and kill in PvP and do the same in pve. If they nerf that i'll just go back to DPS.

snip.

So let me get this straight. It's okay for us to sit in front of the boss and do bare minimum DPS, turtle in tank stance and pop a CD every now and then for a buster. While the healers not only heal us, and do mechanics, but also stance dance for cleric stance to push out a ton of DPS, while the DPS does mechanics as well.

It's not okay for healers to just heal but it's okay for tanks to just tank? That seems kind of like a double standard.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Since I am a PvPer a lack of tank dps when Dark Knight doesn't have the level of CC warrior or paladin do, playing Dark Knight would kind of be pointless if I can't even do decent damage. While yes I strength tank in pve and I enjoy doing it. I tanked in 2.0 with vitality and while it was boring to tank on paladin in lots of fights. That's more because of the lack of other things to do while tanking than doing good DPS. However at least for now I can contribute decent damage to help beat an enrage or make a run quicker.

I play a Rank 50 Tank (Paladin) in PvP as well (Which you might be able to guess by the Helm of the Behemoth King my portrait shows at times), and I am fully aware that currently we are slightly tougher (~1500 hp in Sealed Rock) positional free melee DpS with fewer damage boosting cool downs while wearing Strength accessories and very tough, mediocre DpS while wearing Vit Accessories.

I doubt that they plan to completely destroy tank DpS. There may be a roughly 10% decrease in DpS for a Tank wearing Str Accessories, but this would come with a roughly 10% increase in Tank DpS while in Vit Accessories. This would lead to a choice of 5% DpS versus 27% hp (~3k at Sealed Rock's i150 levelsync)

So let me get this straight. It's okay for us to sit in front of the boss and do bare minimum DPS, turtle in tank stance and pop a CD every now and then for a buster. While the healers not only heal us, and do mechanics, but also stance dance for cleric stance to push out a ton of DPS, while the DPS does mechanics as well.

It's not okay for healers to just heal but it's okay for tanks to just tank? That seems kind of like a double standard.

The thing is that a Tank in Str gear and and a Tank in Vit gear do not do anything really different. Both use the same rotations to max DpS, both can do the same stance dancing, etc. The difference in numbers just happens to be influenced by 5 right side equipment pieces.

[Cynric]

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My problem isn't that we wouldn't do the same thing as before. Just that the contribution wouldn't be the same.As it stands right now if my DPS are sub-par I can make up for it. The only problem would be if they were to decrease tank DPS by 50% like some people suggest. At that point optimization wouldn't really help as much in terms of raid DPS and it would fall on the healers stronger DPS at that point and the DPS to meet the required DPS.

Yeah we do the same stuff but we contribute less over all for the same work. I don't really like the idea of contributing less for the same work.

As far as pvp goes. If it's like 10% that's not too big a deal as long as the burst is still decent. If it's a big change like 50% then there'd be no point in having the extra bulk for such little damage with an already lack of CC. Paladin functioned fine before having more DPS since they can stun lock. They weren't really getting the most kills but they could at least support and lead into kills. Warrior can hold someone down with holmgang with or without high damage. Dark Knight however gets a small duration heavy and most likely one opportunity to stun with low blow, neither are really mind blowing CC skills. So by that information if tank DPS does get nerfed down to 50% of what it is , there's really no reason for me to run in as Dark Knight just for the extra health.

[ManaKing]

So let me get this straight. It's okay for us to sit in front of the boss and do bare minimum DPS, turtle in tank stance and pop a CD every now and then for a buster. While the healers not only heal us, and do mechanics, but also stance dance for cleric stance to push out a ton of DPS, while the DPS does mechanics as well.

It's not okay for healers to just heal but it's okay for tanks to just tank? That seems kind of like a double standard.

Your Healer gears for max heals and max DPS, that's what cleric stance does, you just have to toggle it when appropriate to play your job to the fullest.

You only gear for maximum DPS and effectively take away their ability to DPS because they can't justify jumping into cleric stance because you'll fall over too fast and make them look incompetent for playing their job to the max.

Your statistical DPS boosts aren't worth their complete exclusion from the DPS portion of their character. The Double Standard is you not letting them play their job the way they want by making an assumption on your gear. If you go for Double Melds you can stance dance and so can they. Double melds are the best you can do to allow yourself and your healers to max your performances without excluding one of you from actually playing the game.

If your healer straight up says, "nope I don't DPS, I only heal" then sure you can start making those assumptions. But I play with healers who actually DPS and enjoy it. They put out solid numbers and help with enrages.

From my point of view, you're just an EPEEN bully. Your play experience is no different than if you were in full VIT. You'd still stance dance if you wanted to increase DPS and the only difference that STR gear makes is how large the numbers are and how long a healer can go before they need to heal you.

SE's statement that tanks need to not be the only job that gets singled out for luxury gearing to help raids progress is indicative of fairness for all, not just for EPEEN tanks.

If you don't like my hyperbole then you really shouldn't have thrown it all over your statements. It gives me the idea that you're ok with a discussion that is just black and white.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Your Healer gears for max heals and max DPS, that's what cleric stance does, you just have to toggle it when appropriate to play your job to the fullest.

You only gear for maximum DPS and effectively take away their ability to DPS because they can't justify jumping into cleric stance because you'll fall over too fast and make them look incompetent for playing their job to the max.

Your statistical DPS boosts aren't worth their complete exclusion from the DPS portion of their character. The Double Standard is you not letting them play their job the way they want by making an assumption on your gear. If you go for Double Melds you can stance dance and so can they. Double melds are the best you can do to allow yourself and your healers to max your performances without excluding one of you from actually playing the game.

If your healer straight up says, "nope I don't DPS, I only heal" then sure you can start making those assumptions. But I play with healers who actually DPS and enjoy it. They put out solid numbers and help with enrages.

From my point of view, you're just an EPEEN bully. Your play experience is no different than if you were in full VIT. You'd still stance dance if you wanted to increase DPS and the only difference that STR gear makes is how large the numbers are and how long a healer can go before they need to heal you.

SE's statement that tanks need to not be the only job that gets singled out for luxury gearing to help raids progress is indicative of fairness for all, not just for EPEEN tanks.

If you don't like my hyperbole then you really shouldn't have thrown it all over your statements. It gives me the idea that you're ok with a discussion that is just black and white.

I'd much rather the tank go full dps then the healer. It is much safer to have a healer paying attention to health bars then trying to think about DPS.

Why? Because its much easier to tank and dps then heal and dps. Every time you toggle your cleric stance your no longer looking at health bars as much because your now doing a DPS rotation, this means that if the tank is introuble you would not know.

It is always better for the healer to be mostly a full healer and use his dps stuff only when the monster isn't attacking or he just doesn't need to heal.

Bla bla bla, i'm tired now you get the point.