If you could kill off one of the scions...

[Frederick22]

Like I said, im not gonna keep quoting to you, Is useless and calling me lazy, that im arrgogant and that I need to grow up? ok, prety much confirms that the rude here is you. Did I even say such words to you?

I prefer to end this drama here.

[Tenkuu]

To correct myself, Midgardsormr never says he wants to stop the war; he simply refuses trying to do so because of the Ishgardians' blindness to their sin. It's not until you restore the Blessing of Light from his suppression that he believes there's a real chance for peace between man and dragon.

I agree, which is why I think there's either some discrepancy or it was perhaps poorly written or unclear. Either way, I don't think it's wrong for him to change his opinion, but it did seem to come a bit out of left field, so to speak.

At the same time, he makes no indication that he's going to join Nidhogg, especially if you compare the Japanese and English dialogue. He simply states that he awoke in response to Nidhogg's call. While his English dialogue implies he's going to join the battle, in the Japanese script he never says anything of the sort and only speaks as if Nidhogg (the child in question) and his Horde are going to fight Ishgard.

Actually, there are some pretty specific parts that indicate a hatred of Ishgardians corresponding exactly to Nidhogg's, as well as that he intends to react accordingly:

"Their destination is Ishgard, home of the people who have forgotten fear and have sinned."
"This is retribution! The people of Ishgard are blind to their sins. Their sins demand battle without end."
"And yet more, they want to sin again. This is why my kin roars."
"I have awoken to answer to the roar for it was not me who roared, but one of my seven sons."
"As Ishgard doesn't want to repent, my child and their people will not delay the retribution. The land shall burn, their people shall die, the justice will be done."
"However, you're a human. Like people of Ishgard, you're capable of a foolish crime. Do not think I spare your life for nothing."

His general attitude is implicitly in agreement with the warmongering dragons as of 2.0.

Either way, he implicitly condemns Nidhogg's inability to let go of his hatred after he possesses Estinien to resurrect himself, so obviously Midgardsormr doesn't think that's kosher. Maybe it was, but he has decided to give Ishgard a chance even despite their grievous sins because he is rational enough to recognize the modern Ishgardians are not Thordan and thus do not deserve to suffer for his sins now that they know the truth and are trying to make up for it. Nidhogg... not so much. He hates Ishgard so much that he possessed a guy from beyond the grave and reconstituted his body though sheer hatred. Even Midgardsormr, Wyrmking and Magical Space Dragon, cannot condone this, which is why he warns Ishgard that Nidhogg will be back.

At that point, and after seeing that Nidhogg would go so far as to possess someone to resurrect himself, yes, then he thinks it's gone too far, which is pretty accurate. If you want to say that Midgarsormr was fair to both Nidhogg and the Ishgardians, then I agree completely. My point was merely to question whether the Ishgardians actually deserve that faith or not, ie we definitely deserve it more.

And, because Nidhogg does not recognize that the modern citizens of Ishgard are not responsible for Thordan's sin, or otherwise doesn't care, he will wage eternal war on them to see them suffer forever. No other reason. Compare Midgardsormr (who is willing to give them a chance) and Hraesvelgr (who doesn't care for the most part, though he does bring Ysayle to Azys Lla so maybe he had a change of heart).

Understandable? I... guess. Relatable? Hard. Justifiable? Not in the slightest.

Oh I agree that he isn't right, but I could understand his thought process and tbh, with a case like this, it's easy to play devil's advocate. Also, at the same time as you're saying that it isn't right of Nidhogg to be attacking all Ishgardians for sins of their ancestors, I also don't think it was entirely right for us to go and murder all of Nidhogg's brood just to get at him. Was it perhaps cowardly of Nidhogg to hide back at home instead of coming out to face us? Sure, I'll grant you that. But it still felt wrong to me to be raiding the Aery, not to mention a little hypocritical.

Now, the problem is the time difference between man and dragon. Throughout the story, Hraesvelgr and Midgardsormr treat the incident with Thordan and his Knights Twelve as if it were yesterday to them. Fair enough, but Thordan and half the Knights were killed in recompense (already an unfair exchange if you follow the "eye for an eye" philosophy). Ishgard still stands, but the people who actually wronged the dragons are long dead. Midgardsormr says that the people of Ishgard have sinned, are blind to their sin, and want to sin yet again, but that's an extremely unfair judgment to make when even the Knight-Commander of the Temple Knights and the Azure Dragoon do not know the truth and are not in on the "Knights of the Round" plan. Remember that openly questioning the Church gets you branded a heretic, and that the only fate for heretics is death, and you'll understand why people don't question the Church's... embellished version of the story. (Hell, Estinien did have his doubts, he just never voiced them.)

Yup, but from the dragon POV, they have no reason to forget any of what happened or feel any less embittered about it. And yes, it may be an unfair judgement to make, but not based on his limited knowledge. Were both sides in the wrong in their own way? Admittedly so. My primary arguments though were that I can see it from Nidhogg's POV, and also that the Ishgardians made no efforts. They started to doubt, and then they came running to us for help, but as far as their own self-reliant efforts, they really didn't do anything. That's the only part that really bugs me, and that makes me think that anytime something else goes wrong, they'll be relying on us again which, all things considered, is a little odd considering that they're the ones with the legions of dragon-killing experts.

So again, it comes back to the fact that Nidhogg hates the very concept of Ishgard and has no intention of actually winning the war that makes it necessary to put him down. To save the countless lives that would be consumed by his unyielding hatred, and for all the ignorant, innocent people he shamelessly killed... I did not feel good about it, but it had to be done and must be done once more. So be it.

Yup, this was my point exactly, that you could not feel good about anything that was done because it felt so... extreme. Thank you for keeping this respectful unlike certain other posters, btw.

[Tenkuu]

Like I said, im not gonna keep quoting to you, Is useless and calling me lazy, that im arrgogant and that I need to grow up? ok, prety much confirms that the rude here is you. Did I even say such words to you?

I prefer to end this drama here.

No, I have lost my patience with you because you are quite frankly insufferably naive and like to play the victim, but no, I was not rude. And yes, you do need to grow up. Stating outright that you aren't gonna reply anymore and then replying again is the mark of a child crying out for attention. Also, "did you say such words"? I quoted you directly, or are you blind?

[Frederick22]

snip

You really seem that you dont wanna stop ok, lets be clear. All I did was tring to reply your quotes, poing out some tipes that were mistake, like some orthers. But you keep replying and even that I gave you good evidence you were keep replying and starting to change your original questions, also you started be becoming rude to me and saing that my quotings didnt make sense/ confusing despite it was obious it wasnt. After this is when I started to lose my calm beaucse you siply didnt care or you were denying in, thats is when you could say i may act like you said. My only mistake was to insiting despite its was already to obious that wasnt worth to keep going. Some orther people here are use to deal with this so they always are the best to be as calm as possible, I didnt. On my last post I meaned "did I say such words", not you, was a tiping mistake.

[Tenkuu]

back to the OP thread, I wonder why you guys are so eager to kill the scions... You know, I left WOW after 10 years because, Hell ! I'm fed up to be just a second rate character for some NPCs to shine while I have done 90% of the job ! In WOW we are not the heroes ! Thrall, Varyan and cie are the heroes but we players are cleaning the raids, the dungeons, ect but we are nothing compared to these NPCs. Here, I know why I'm here, why I'm doing stuff and I'm rewarded by the scions respect (remember hesitation of minfilia when she asked us to do a mission just right we joined the scions). See how the chiefs of states treat us, remember that cinematic when Tataru-chan asked for a champion to fight for her when Alphinaud and her were unfairly arrested by Hishgard templars ! Hail the scions !

I wouldn't kill a single one of them. They're all kind to you and act so much like regular people, they're too easy to love, especially in the japanese version. They're also humble and reserved when it comes to fighting every cause that comes on their doorstep. Even Alphinaud, regardless of his faults, provides so much support to you. As I mentioned before, they all literally do all of the hard work and all you do is go places and kill stuff without having to think too much about anything. You really could not ask for a better or more inclusive support group.

[Tenkuu]

You really seem that you dont wanna stop ok, lets be clear. All I did was tring to reply your quotes, poing out some tipes that were mistake, like some orthers. But you keep replying and even that I gave you good evidence you were keep replying and starting to change your original questions, also you started be becoming rude to me and saing that my quotings didnt make sense/ confusing despite it was obious it wasnt. After this is when I started to lose my calm beaucse you siply didnt care or you were denying in, thats is when you could say i may act like you said. My only mistake was to insiting despite its was already to obious that wasnt worth to keep going. Some orther people here are use to deal with this so they always are the best to be as calm as possible, I didnt. On my last post I meaned "did I say such words", not you, was a tiping mistake.

Enough already. If you won't apologize for being rude and just want to keep making excuses and playing the victim, go somewhere else. I already explained to you that I've backed up my opinions with in-game facts, and I never once said that you didn't make sense, I said that it was confusing me because my messages are long and I don't know which parts you're replying to. If you're actually sincere in not wanting a fight, go back and edit that post that I asked you to, and I will go back and edit my post that was responding to it too.

Not a single word that I said to you has been rude, you are the one who is playing the victim and that is quite frankly enough. Start acting like an adult who can have a discussion without degenerating into name-calling and dismissive attitudes.

Either way, stop derailing this thread for melodrama and own up to your actions. And for the love of god, stop snipping everything.

[Tenkuu]

What you're not seeing is people are disliking most of the Scions because they don't help the WOL/you directly; you're the muscle, they're the brains. People want NPCs that actually help out rather than bark orders or sit back while the player does everything (then again most RPGs go that way anyway). I still don't agree with the "kill em all" mentality since it comes off as a tantrum to me plus I severely hate it when people and writers alike think killing characters off is the only way to write someone out of the story.

Your very first meeting with Thancred (or whoever your starting city Scion(s) is/are): he's right there fighting with you. When you're fighting an Ascian and his monster a little later on, right when things start to get dicy, there's Thancred again, coming to the rescue. Castrum Centri, when you're escaping, everyone is right there fighting the Magiteks as you go and disable the devices protecting them. They don't help you all the time because then people would complain that it doesn't feel like we are real heroes and capable of handling a fight on our own. Point being: you really can't please everyone no matter what you do, but the Scions do strike the perfect balance between being both your support group (providing intelligence) and your fighting partners. RO2, for instance, felt very lacking in that respect. Of the few NPCs that were likeable, hardly any of them ever participated in fights with you. It felt extremely impersonal and was only one of the reasons that leveling past level 50 was tedious and repetitive.

Regarding the "kill them all" mentality though, the Scions are generally against it. The move to Mor Dhona occurs specifically because they all are uncomfortable with the idea of fighting just any random cause and want to have the freedom to choose their causes.

[Tenkuu]

Its nothing to do with our importance in the story.

Some just find the scions either boring or ineffectual, or both.

Just because they don't fight as often as you or on other levels as well? It should be remembered that these people, in the lore, have been around and doing their thing far longer than you have. Even for those who played 1.0, the Circle of Knowing was literally active at least 10 years before we came into the picture. As for boring, I don't know, but some of their antics are outright hilarious. Then again, just like anything else, if you actually want the full experience, you have to make the effort to seek them out outside of quests, and unlike in certain other MMOs, it's pretty amazing that their dialogue and behaviors are constantly changing when you speak to them in-between quests. The antics I'm referring to are mostly a Rising Stones thing, btw, though some interesting conversations do occur in the storage room of Waking Sands as well.

Granted, the story wants us to know that this is a team that we work with, but they aren't ACTUALLY the team that we work with(other players) our main source of interaction seems to be busywork and, despite their efforts, saving the day when they invariably arrive too late to stop the summoning of the latest primal. Yet they are the ones with plot armor and aetherial technobabble(i:e: Cid's group), so its just assumed that we are, and forever will be, stuck with them, killing primals every three months.

Well, but this makes sense. They can't customize the characters to respond to everything that you might think of saying to them, and in fights, they have to give you enough space that it feels like you won that fight through your own efforts. Also, the plot armor part is not true. When Thancred is revealed to have been possessed by Lahabrea, for instance, without reading spoilers, I had real reason to be worried whether we would end up having to kill him or not. Also, of the Scions we've lost as of 2.55, only Y'shtola has been recovered and she's not completely unharmed. The Primals though, that's a major theme of the game, so can't really do anything about that.

That's the reason I don't like them at least. (Fun fact: I initially tried to refuse joining the path of the Twelve. Got "but thou must"'d by Minfillia. Didn't appriciate it. )

Then again, no Scions means no retainers. Also a thing I forgot to mention above is that in the lore, the Scions' only obligations to you are quite literally contractual, ie you signed a document, but they're literally always including you in their antics and making you feel like a part of the group.

I find that several characters are viewed better when they are finally getting a taste of the front lines with us, but even that doesn't save everyone's character.

True, but then again these characters have been on the front lines longer than you have and from the very beginning of the game, they've even participated in your fights before you joined the Scions, back when they didn't owe you a thing. Also important to remember is that none of these people remember you (if you played 1.0) except for Minfilia, yet even so they make efforts to welcome and include you.

[Tenkuu]

I partly agree to what that has been said. Still, if I was to choose, I'd rather deal with the scions then any warchief or high king from WOW ! We may be the muscle and them the brains, still after what we do, we are praised by the NPCs, some even are jealous of our powers. Unlike WOW, we just follow a story to make sure that the NPCs have the main role on the story through our actions without making us under the light (Dragon soul : Cataclysm). The more I saw some players, the more they wish to follow the bad side of the NPCs ; I even heard some guys who wish to follow the ascians as a main quest storyline. I find it a bit childish since I feel that some kids like to play dark-something, or like playing a bad guy is better than doing something good

As someone who has not-too-seriously considered joining the Garleans, at the least, I can tell you that it doesn't come from a wish to be a bad guy, but rather that Gaius, at least, makes perfect sense as he explains things to us in Praetorium. He makes several good points regarding the Primals and Eorzea's general inability to deal with the beast tribes. Heck, even Alphinaud admits to having initially felt that Eorzea deserved to be conquered by Garlemald. Also, the Dark Knight quests make pretty clear that we are perfectly fallible heroes and that some tiny part of us is actually pretty sick of being yanked every which way fighting everyone's battles for them. I know that most people interpret this as us being sick of being Scion pets, but imo it's much more than that. The Scions themselves are managing the situation as best they can, even bringing up their objections to a situation when they have any, but I think we as the Adventurer are mostly sick of having both ourselves and our group of friends get dragged into everyone else's nonsense while they almost literally just sit on their thumbs waiting for a report of our victory.

Of the Scions, Y'shtola is the most obviously disgruntled at the way their respective nations handle the situation with the beast tribes, but it seems pretty clear that even Thancred, comfortable as he may be at Ul'dahn court, is generally pretty fed up with the politics of the country. With regards to how they handle the beast tribes, I would say Gridania is probably the least messed up of the 3 countries, though even Yda and Papalymo recognize a few inherent problems there too.

[Razem5791]

I wouldn't kill a single one of them. They're all kind to you and act so much like regular people, they're too easy to love, especially in the japanese version. They're also humble and reserved when it comes to fighting every cause that comes on their doorstep. Even Alphinaud, regardless of his faults, provides so much support to you. As I mentioned before, they all literally do all of the hard work and all you do is go places and kill stuff without having to think too much about anything. You really could not ask for a better or more inclusive support group.

Finally I meet someone that understands me ! My feelings aswell about the Scions. Unlike any character I met in WOW (I quote WOW since I've been there for 10 years), I grew supportive to many NPCs in FF14 a realm reborn. Even if at time, they might act a bit childish, still I kinda like them. I was so devastated when they died at Uldah.