If you could kill off one of the scions...

[Tenkuu]

Is a bit obious what im quotinng. Im always quoting the comment that is before mine.

I'm sorry, but since my posts can be a bit on the long side, I really don't know which specific parts you are replying to, and let's face it, quoting specific parts is not that hard either, like I did just now when I replied to your post in parts.

Btw did you ever read what I put on my comments? It seems that you dont care anything of what I have written and you just want to said "I have no idea what are you quoting"

I read everything that everyone says, and reply to the parts to which I have something to say. Like I said before, you only need to edit your post to be properly quoting me and I'll be able to respond to you. I said that because upon an initial reading of your post, I did not really understand where you were coming from, so having the perspective of which of my comments you were responding to would help me to form a better idea of how to formulate my response to you.

Also I think Cilia explained better than me why Middy was meaning about "joining the chorus"

And I explained precisely in my reply to her why I don't agree with this assumption, or at least my belief that if this was the intention, it was not expressed clearly as of 2.0 where Midgarsormr could honestly not have given two shits about Ishgardians.

Dont be on denial and writing stuff that dont make sense please . We are just tring to explain what we know beacuse you seem that you dont.

I'm sorry, do I look like I've insulted you in any way? Or is my right to my opinions supposed to somehow be insulting to you personally? Either way, either get over yourself or just plain do not reply if all you intend is rudeness. You'd do well to remember the old adage that it's better to not say anything at all when you have nothing nice to say. I asked you pretty nicely to please edit your post to quote me, so if it's that much of a chore for you to do so, then I guess you're not that interested in my reply to begin with.

[Tenkuu]

On a comment above I gave you an explanation of why the Ishgardians had so much trouble into find a "peacefull solution". Read carefully please.

Your main point, about everyone knowing that the church was corrupt, is invalid. It's not true that the rule of Ishgard was being questioned. What *was* being questioned was Ishgard's foreign policy, and even then only people like Aymeric and Haurchefant had been disagreeing with it, and that was mostly because of their own open personalities and the helpfulness that Alphinaud and the Adventurer showed them in helping to clear the name of one of their high Houses. Also, Nidhogg's attacks on Ishgard were quite regardless of the Adventurer's actions, meaning that all we did was step into an existing situation and, contrary to the Ishgardians, actually choose to do *something*. What Alphinaud initially proposed was a simple parley, after all, and even though that fell through, it could have just as easily been initiated by an Ishgardian as by us. It would have yielded the same results of being denied, either by Hraesvelgr or his daughter, and then the Ishgardians could have requested the help of either the Scions specifically or the other nations as a whole. The point I'm making here is that the Ishgardians literally did nothing other than seek war with the Dravanians, and that outside of our more "supernatural" feats of strength, everything we did was just as easily doable by anyone else with the skills and motivation to actually give enough of a damn to make an effort.

[Frederick22]

snip.

This is the last thing I'm going to reply to you. You asked why Ishgard did not try another solution to end the war instead of just tring to kill every dragon on sight, before the WoL came, I responded you and now you are saing me something that it has no relation with your original question to begin with.

I wasnt rude. All I did was just respond your comments, saing that part of what you wrote was mistaken. Then you start attacking me, denying everything what me and the rest tried to say to you or you just didnt care. I'm not the one only who put "snip" instead of adding everything on the quot. You seem that you didnt have any problem with orthers but with me was a different story. I'm sorry but you seem that you are being rude here.

Its ok, you cant convince everyone even if they could be wrong. You are holding to your opinions and I respect that. I dont want to start a quoting fight so I prefer to finish with this.

[Cilia]

To correct myself, Midgardsormr never says he wants to stop the war; he simply refuses trying to do so because of the Ishgardians' blindness to their sin. It's not until you restore the Blessing of Light from his suppression that he believes there's a real chance for peace between man and dragon.

At the same time, he makes no indication that he's going to join Nidhogg, especially if you compare the Japanese and English dialogue. He simply states that he awoke in response to Nidhogg's call. While his English dialogue implies he's going to join the battle, in the Japanese script he never says anything of the sort and only speaks as if Nidhogg (the child in question) and his Horde are going to fight Ishgard.

Either way, he implicitly condemns Nidhogg's inability to let go of his hatred after he possesses Estinien to resurrect himself, so obviously Midgardsormr doesn't think that's kosher. Maybe it was, but he has decided to give Ishgard a chance even despite their grievous sins because he is rational enough to recognize the modern Ishgardians are not Thordan and thus do not deserve to suffer for his sins now that they know the truth and are trying to make up for it. Nidhogg... not so much. He hates Ishgard so much that he possessed a guy from beyond the grave and reconstituted his body though sheer hatred. Even Midgardsormr, Wyrmking and Magical Space Dragon, cannot condone this, which is why he warns Ishgard that Nidhogg will be back.

And, because Nidhogg does not recognize that the modern citizens of Ishgard are not responsible for Thordan's sin, or otherwise doesn't care, he will wage eternal war on them to see them suffer forever. No other reason. Compare Midgardsormr (who is willing to give them a chance) and Hraesvelgr (who doesn't care for the most part, though he does bring Ysayle to Azys Lla so maybe he had a change of heart).

Understandable? I... guess. Relatable? Hard. Justifiable? Not in the slightest.

Now, the problem is the time difference between man and dragon. Throughout the story, Hraesvelgr and Midgardsormr treat the incident with Thordan and his Knights Twelve as if it were yesterday to them. Fair enough, but Thordan and half the Knights were killed in recompense (already an unfair exchange if you follow the "eye for an eye" philosophy). Ishgard still stands, but the people who actually wronged the dragons are long dead. Midgardsormr says that the people of Ishgard have sinned, are blind to their sin, and want to sin yet again, but that's an extremely unfair judgment to make when even the Knight-Commander of the Temple Knights and the Azure Dragoon do not know the truth and are not in on the "Knights of the Round" plan. Remember that openly questioning the Church gets you branded a heretic, and that the only fate for heretics is death, and you'll understand why people don't question the Church's... embellished version of the story. (Hell, Estinien did have his doubts, he just never voiced them.)

So again, it comes back to the fact that Nidhogg hates the very concept of Ishgard and has no intention of actually winning the war that makes it necessary to put him down. To save the countless lives that would be consumed by his unyielding hatred, and for all the ignorant, innocent people he shamelessly killed... I did not feel good about it, but it had to be done and must be done once more. So be it.

[Razem5791]

back to the OP thread, I wonder why you guys are so eager to kill the scions... You know, I left WOW after 10 years because, Hell ! I'm fed up to be just a second rate character for some NPCs to shine while I have done 90% of the job ! In WOW we are not the heroes ! Thrall, Varyan and cie are the heroes but we players are cleaning the raids, the dungeons, ect but we are nothing compared to these NPCs. Here, I know why I'm here, why I'm doing stuff and I'm rewarded by the scions respect (remember hesitation of minfilia when she asked us to do a mission just right we joined the scions). See how the chiefs of states treat us, remember that cinematic when Tataru-chan asked for a champion to fight for her when Alphinaud and her were unfairly arrested by Hishgard templars ! Hail the scions !

[MilesSaintboroguh]

snip

What you're not seeing is people are disliking most of the Scions because they don't help the WOL/you directly; you're the muscle, they're the brains. People want NPCs that actually help out rather than bark orders or sit back while the player does everything (then again most RPGs go that way anyway). I still don't agree with the "kill em all" mentality since it comes off as a tantrum to me plus I severely hate it when people and writers alike think killing characters off is the only way to write someone out of the story.

[Kallera]

Its nothing to do with our importance in the story.

Some just find the scions either boring or ineffectual, or both.

Granted, the story wants us to know that this is a team that we work with, but they aren't ACTUALLY the team that we work with(other players) our main source of interaction seems to be busywork and, despite their efforts, saving the day when they invariably arrive too late to stop the summoning of the latest primal. Yet they are the ones with plot armor and aetherial technobabble(i:e: Cid's group), so its just assumed that we are, and forever will be, stuck with them, killing primals every three months.

That's the reason I don't like them at least. (Fun fact: I initially tried to refuse joining the path of the Twelve. Got "but thou must"'d by Minfillia. Didn't appriciate it. )

I find that several characters are viewed better when they are finally getting a taste of the front lines with us, but even that doesn't save everyone's character.

[Razem5791]

I partly agree to what that has been said. Still, if I was to choose, I'd rather deal with the scions then any warchief or high king from WOW ! We may be the muscle and them the brains, still after what we do, we are praised by the NPCs, some even are jealous of our powers. Unlike WOW, we just follow a story to make sure that the NPCs have the main role on the story through our actions without making us under the light (Dragon soul : Cataclysm). The more I saw some players, the more they wish to follow the bad side of the NPCs ; I even heard some guys who wish to follow the ascians as a main quest storyline. I find it a bit childish since I feel that some kids like to play dark-something, or like playing a bad guy is better than doing something good

[Kallera]

Some of the dislike comes from being taken for granted, which you can certainly relate to. As far as playing the bad guys, well, that's a part of the setting. Eorzea is less black and white than it appears.

[Tenkuu]

This is the last thing I'm going to reply to you. You asked why Ishgard did not try another solution to end the war instead of just tring to kill every dragon on sight, before the WoL came, I responded you and now you are saing me something that it has no relation with your original question to begin with.

That's your choice. But if you're so lazy as to not be able to edit a post to quote a person properly, then that is your problem, not mine. I never asked why Ishgard didn't try another solution btw, I was on the contrary replying to you guys and explaining their generally lazy and warmongering attitude up until the point that the Adventurer came into the picture. I've explained to you that most of what we've done, outside of the fighting, was easily doable by someone else. Or do you not think that we've been branded much worse by the Pope than anyone in Ishgard would have been for trying anything? We defended Tataru and Alphinaud from that accusation in combat, remember? The thing is, regardless of whatever anyone could be accused of, actually starting a movement and gaining allies, that would have gained the Ishgardians the same sort of support as the Adventurer and Alphinaud coming in. We are literally just 2 people who only fight when it's necessary, you'll remember. Not to mention that I replied to your thoughts on the reasons why Ishgardians never tried to find solutions, and generally speaking, I believe they very well could have if they bothered to make the effort.

I wasnt rude. All I did was just respond your comments, saing that part of what you wrote was mistaken. Then you start attacking me, denying everything what me and the rest tried to say to you or you just didnt care. I'm not the one only who put "snip" instead of adding everything on the quot. You seem that you didnt have any problem with orthers but with me was a different story. I'm sorry but you seem that you are being rude here.

Oh I'm sorry, was me developing my opinion and backing it up with facts somehow insulting to you? Are you really so lacking in self-confidence that you need me to agree with everything you say? Please grow up and get over yourself. I used in-game facts, what happened to both you the Adventurer and some of the more important Ishgardians and Midgarsormr to back up what I was saying. No, I did not have a problem with Celia's initial reply because it was in fact her first reply to me, and I hadn't just taken the time to reply specifically and separately to parts of what she said. That's what made it difficult with your post, and quite honestly, if you can't be arsed to make the effort to properly quote me when I divide my post as such to address your several specific points, why should I bother replying to you? As for you not being rude, are you really going to pretend to not see how dismissive and arrogant your tone was in the following quote? "Dont be on denial and writing stuff that dont make sense please . We are just tring to explain what we know beacuse you seem that you dont." Own what you say instead of trying to act innocent.

Its ok, you cant convince everyone even if they could be wrong. You are holding to your opinions and I respect that. I dont want to start a quoting fight so I prefer to finish with this.

All of that just because you're too lazy to properly quote what you're replying to when I made the effort to specifically quote you? Really, I should have just ignored you from the start, that is an extremely childish argument of you to make. Not to mention you are again insulting me with the tone of what you're saying, or are you going to pretend that you can't see it this time too?