If you could kill off one of the scions...

[LaurelinKementari]

Even Nidhogg's own father pretty much deems him a lost cause that has gone completely off the deep end.

(Mind you, as a side note, I'm not of the opinion that Hraesvelgr is morally any better than Nidhogg, but at least Hraesvelgr didn't want to continue the conflict after Nidhogg was slain. He just didn't want to end it either, the feathered arse.)

[Morningstar1337]

Even Nidhogg's own father pretty much deems him a lost cause that has gone completely off the deep end.

(Mind you, as a side note, I'm not of the opinion that Hraesvelgr is morally any better than Nidhogg, but at least Hraesvelgr didn't want to continue the conflict after Nidhogg was slain. He just didn't want to end it either, the feathered arse.)

Hraesvelgr didn't directly continue the conflict, but last I checked, the only cases of Heterochromia iridium were on myself and G'hrara

[Tenkuu]

The Monetarists can't off Nanamo because she's a beloved figure. No other reason. Our reputation was a factor, but there was enough power to keep the city on lockdown and have the truth suppressed to the point nobody really knew what happened outside hushed rumors.

Not only because she's a beloved figure, it's also because they need the monarchy. They need things to not change. Technically speaking they certainly did suppress the truth, not so sure about the lockdown, but they knew very well that there would be a civil war if they tried too much against us. Everyone already seemed to know that the Warrior of Light and their allies attended a banquet held in their honor, after all.

I didn't mind not having the Scions around, but the first act of Heavensward (up to Nidhogg's defeat) was rather long and done entirely in recompense for Ishgard sheltering us. Our rescue attempt then leads into the second act, which is done entirely because we're the Scions and primal slaying is our MO.

To me it just felt like yeah, sure, we're helping them for helping us, but we're kinda not minding our own business at the same time. And yes, we're the Scions and we slay Primals, but we were down to literally two combatants and one secretary, and only of those combatants was doing any real fighting, not to mention we have none of the intelligence that the other Scions provided for us in the past, nor did we care. It was literally a disorganized mess.

Nidhogg's rage is understandable, but it's the fact that he's pointing it at people undeserving of it that puts him in the wrong. The people who wronged him he either killed or are long dead, and the Dragonsong War is not a war meant to be won - it's an eternal punishment upon Isghard, even though modern Ishgardians are lied to as to why they're fighting their war against the Dravanian Horde. It's not that his fury is wrong, but that it's entirely misplaced, and he has no intention of ever giving it up. Thus, in order to save countless lives and save countless more from becoming enslaved to Nidhogg's vengeance, we put him down.

You can argue that, but then again, from his point of view, there's nothing to actually redeem Ishgard either: they still have dragoons, they still hunt down dragons either for sport or to prove themselves, and they're still hiding the truth to make themselves look good. From Nidhogg's point of view, everyone is equally guilty because he views them as one people. Also, it's not as if Nidhogg would actually be aware that most Ishgardians don't have a clue about the war against the Dravanians. I don't even think Hraesvelgr knew, for that matter.

Yes, dragon lifetimes are far longer than that of a mortal's, but that excuse wore very thin. If it's Thordan and his Knights Twelve who wronged you, and they're dead, why do you need to continue exacting vengeance upon their children, and their children's children, for eternity?

It isn't really an excuse. In fact, it's akin to wanting the murderer of your sister to rot in jail for the rest of his life (and yours). As I mentioned above, I believe Nidhogg views the Ishgardians as one people, all responsible for the same sin. After all, if one Ishgardian can do it, why couldn't they all? After having trusted Ishgardians once and being betrayed horribly, why would he not think that he can't trust any Ishgardian ever again and that they would just as soon do it again?

[Frederick22]

snip

All this hate to dragons, the dragoons, etc. All this is a culture imprigned on Ishgardians beacuse they learn that dragons are their enemie, why their enemie beacuse they have atacked and killed countless of people. All this beacuse of the war they have between them, so yea they learn to fear and hate dragons. But is not their fault

I think you are confusing trust with an eternal revengue with people who are innocent about something that happened 100 years ago. With the trust, yea I understand Hraesvelgr 's point. But Nidhogg is a different story, you cannot say that his actions arent guilty and it was on his "hands" to stop the war.

Both dragons know very well the life's spawn of humans, they just dont care

[Tenkuu]

All this hate to dragons, the dragoons, etc. All this is a culture imprigned on Ishgardians beacuse they learn that dragons are their enemie, why their enemie beacuse they have atacked and killed countless of people. All this beacuse of the war they have between them, so yea they learn to fear and hate dragons. But is not their fault

I think you are confusing trust with an eternal revengue with people who are innocent about something that happened 100 years ago. With the trust, yea I understand Hraesvelgr 's point. But Nidhogg is a different story, you cannot say that his actions arent guilty and it was on his "hands" to stop the war.

Both dragons know very well the life's spawn of humans, they just dont care

I'm not really sure what part of what I've said you're quoting, but here goes. Exactly, Isgardians are taught ignorance and lies. Even so, it should be obvious to them that by continuing to kill dragons, they're not exactly fomenting positive relationships with them. So then, how is that supposed to redeem them in the eyes of any Dravanian? The Ishgardians have never looked for a solution the way the Scions did, instead they simply painted themselves as victims and resigned themselves to eternally go "woe is me".

What reason did Nidhogg have to want to stop a war that, in his eyes, he did not begin nor was responsible for? To him, the Ishgardians are responsible for everything, both the initial killing of his sister and the perpetuation of a tradition of killing dragons.

Nidhogg does not feel that any Ishgardians deserve to live because he believes them all untrustworthy and more than capable of repeating a betrayal if they were to be trusted again.

Tenku, my apologies for this question, Did you watch the cutscenes of 3.0?

Estinien, Hraesvelgr and Middy made clear that Nidhogg was beyong reasoning and that his vengeance was insatiable. Yes, Nidhogg was the first one to find out that his sister was dead, Hraesvelgr told us that

I dont think Midgarsormr was meaning that he will join the dragonsong war. He pretty much is on a neutral state.

Keeper of the Lake is 2.0 content, not 3.0, and Midgarsormr made clear at the time that he was reviving to join the chorus begun by his child. Yes, I've seen all of the cutscenes, the story is much more important to me than the quests themselves. I'm not saying that Nidhogg is entirely in the right btw, I'm just arguing that I can definitely see it from his point of view.

[Frederick22]

snip

I said before that Nidhogg, if he want to, he would stop the this vengeance against Ishgardians, but he will never do such a thing. Nidhogg knows very well that Thordan is dead, he like all dragons knows how mucch a human can live, they know too that something that could happen yesterday, for orther it would be centuries. He also knows that everyone living on Ishgard are Thordan's decendats, he was to punish his decendants forever.
Nidhogg doesnt wanted them dead, he doesnt care what happens, he was to punish them, to make them suffer forever. If he wants them all death, he have destroyed Ishgard long time ago.

Do you think that Ishgardians could have done something peacefull? let you remind what are the heretics and that Ishgard is under the rule of a corrupted Churt that knew the truth for the start. Ishgard's people was hurted so much with Nidhogg 's rage plus combine that to the wrong leading of the church to the point that they went fanatical zealots with their relegion. Everyone tring to do something suspicions could be consider a heretic, speaking with a dragon was a death penalty, lol they even dont trust anyone who was an outsider. Much of them were so fanatic that they even killed Au'Ra inocents, they were mercyfull only to recieve a worst punish. Another example is Estenien, his family was burn in one of Nidhogg's atacks.


Was not until a the arrive of the WoL, yes. But at that point, the actual rule of Ishgard has already started to be put into question, there was much hate bewetten lowborns and highborns. It was knew that the church could be corrupted.

[Tenkuu]

My apologies but at this point im inclined to belive that you are missing my point or you are denying to accept that we may be right ( sorry but 3.0/2.0 does it matter? doesnt not change what im tring to say)

I said so before, I have no idea what you're quoting of mine that you're responding to, so you need to not just snip everything and start including some of what I said or we will not understand each other. And it very much does matter whether you are referring to 2.0 or 3.0 as far as Midgarsormr's attitude is concerned, because it changed drastically from one to the other. If you need me to explain this change, then I highly recommend you rewatch cutscenes involving him in both expansions. Also, I'm not arguing for a right or wrong, I simply feel that it is easy to see things from Nidhogg's perspective. I'm going to ask that you please edit your post to quote what you're replying to of mine so that I can know what to respond to, and when you have, I'll edit my own post (this post) to form a better response.

I said before that Nidhogg, if he want to, he would stop the this vengeance against Ishgardians, but he will never do such a thing. Nidhogg knows very well that Thordan is dead, he like all dragons knows how mucch a human can live, they know too that something that could happen yesterday, for orther it would be centuries. He also knows that everyone living on Ishgard are Thordan's decendats, he was to punish his decendants forever.
Nidhogg doesnt wanted them dead, he doesnt care what happens, he was to punish them, to make them suffer forever. If he wants them all death, he have destroyed Ishgard long time ago.

Do you think that Ishgardians could have done something peacefull? let you remind what are the heretics and that Ishgard is under the rule of a corrupted Churt that knew the truth for the start. Ishgard's people was hurted so much with Nidhogg 's rage plus combine that to the wrong leading of the church to the point that they went fanatical zealots with their relegion. Everyone tring to do something suspicions could be consider a heretic, speaking with a dragon was a death penalty, lol they even dont trust anyone who was an outsider. Much of them were so fanatic that they even killed Au'Ra inocents, they were mercyfull only to recieve a worst punish. Another example is Estenien, his family was burn in one of Nidhogg's atacks.


Was not until a the arrive of the WoL, yes. But at that point, the actual rule of Ishgard has already started to be put into question, there was much hate bewetten lowborns and highborns. It was knew that the church could be corrupted.

[Cilia]

Snip

Not going to get into the Ul'dah debacle, cuz that's ancient history and I don't care for how it was resolved anyway.

While we are down to two combatants and a secretary (one combatant of whom is prestigious but not exceptionally gifted), it's still the Scions' MO to kill primals. That is the one thing people can always count on us to do, no matter the situation - rain, shine, sleet, or snow, we will quash any primal that shows up because of how dangerous they are. Preventing summoning is a more favorable option, but we can't always succeed at that. Even with only Alphinaud and Tataru (and later Y'shtola as well as Cid, who may as well be an honorary Scion at this point), we still fulfilled our mission.

On Nidhogg, yes, he does not see Ishgard for the people within it but only as an entity that has wronged him, and thus he carries out his eternal vengeance. It is this entire viewpoint that is fundamentally flawed - 99.9% of modern Ishgardians are lied to in regards to why they're in an eternal war with the Horde. Even if they are ignorant as to why they're fighting the war, you can't really blame them when the only options are to fight and kill or death by dragons (or the third option, become a heretic and probably a dragon yourself). If the Ishgardians don't know the real reason behind the war, how can they possibly learn from Thordan's sin?! This is the real reason Midgardsormr states he is going to "join in the chorus" - he wants Ishgard to learn and grow beyond Thordan's mistakes, and offers them the chance to do so now that they are armed with the truth.

Nidhogg? Nope, he just wants them to suffer more. Forever. What he is attacking is not individuals, but Ishgard as a nation - it's the concept of the country that offends him, not any individuals or particular aspects of it. Nidhogg has no interest in peace, or getting Ishgard to learn from Thordan's mistakes, or anything beyond his vengeance. No matter how many lives, mortal and dragon alike, are consumed, he will never stop. While this is understandable, it's not quite relatable, and in no way is it justifiable. He does not want to win the war - he just wants Ishgard to suffer. Forever. Let me stress that: FOREVER. Estinien acknowledges that Nidhogg could have won the war pretty much any time he wanted to, but he has no interest in winning so that more Ishgardians might suffer his wrath. It's a war on Ishgard's spirit, the very concept of Ishgard, not any one person or anything that makes up the whole.

Putting aside the fact Nidhogg never trusted the Ishgardians in the first place, it's not quite the same as seeing your sister's murderer thrown in jail for the rest of their life. It's like exsanguinating said murderer to the point of unconsciousness, then giving them a blood transfusion so you can do it again for as long as you like. Then doing it to said murderer's spouse and children. Then their children, and so forth. It's sadism of the highest caliber, and there is no "justice" in that.

Why should the dragons put their faith in men and believe there is good in them after Thordan's betrayal? What proof do they have it won't happen again? There is none - that's why it's called faith. Even without proof, you simply believe.

[Tenkuu]

While we are down to two combatants and a secretary (one combatant of whom is prestigious but not exceptionally gifted), it's still the Scions' MO to kill primals. That is the one thing people can always count on us to do, no matter the situation - rain, shine, sleet, or snow, we will quash any primal that shows up because of how dangerous they are. Preventing summoning is a more favorable option, but we can't always succeed at that. Even with only Alphinaud and Tataru (and later Y'shtola as well as Cid, who may as well be an honorary Scion at this point), we still fulfilled our mission.

Oh, I absolutely agree that it's the Scions' MO to kill Primals, but they also don't tend to dip their fingers into others' pies without good reason. Given the fact that Primals appeared in Ishgard when we showed up, can we honestly claim that we're not in some way the cause for those Primals? Ie, doing what the Scions are very reluctant to do, which is to involve ourselves in every random cause, are we not in a way exacerbating the situation? Y'shtola said it best in 2.0: the beast tribes generally summon their Primals not for shits and giggles, but because they feel threatened, and we're often the cause of this feeling of fear. In other words, we're not always in the right in interfering.

On Nidhogg, yes, he does not see Ishgard for the people within it but only as an entity that has wronged him, and thus he carries out his eternal vengeance. It is this entire viewpoint that is fundamentally flawed - 99.9% of modern Ishgardians are lied to in regards to why they're in an eternal war with the Horde. Even if they are ignorant as to why they're fighting the war, you can't really blame them when the only options are to fight and kill or death by dragons (or the third option, become a heretic and probably a dragon yourself). If the Ishgardians don't know the real reason behind the war, how can they possibly learn from Thordan's sin?! This is the real reason Midgardsormr states he is going to "join in the chorus" - he wants Ishgard to learn and grow beyond Thordan's mistakes, and offers them the chance to do so now that they are armed with the truth.

Actually, Midgarsormr in 2.0 gives no indication of feeling that his son is in the wrong. I don't know whether this is poor writing, bad planning, or an honest-to-god complete change of heart, but his opinion of men was truly no better than Nidhogg's opinion of Ishgardians in 2.0. Also, I'm not saying that the Ishgardians should be blamed for Nidhogg's war, but rather that they've never attempted to figure out, on their own, what they could possibly do to try to end the war. Their only thought has ever been that utterly destroying their enemy would protect them, and no one until the Warrior of Light and Alphinaud come along had even made any efforts for peace since Saint Shiva. Is that really normal? It's no wonder that Thordan sees us as some kind of supernatural monster when we've been the only ones to challenge the status quo and actually *do* something.

And if you want to claim that the Echo and Blessing of Light made us so special that only we could handle it, there are two arguments that can be made against that: the first and most obvious one is that we obviously don't operate under the Blessing of Light for most of 3.0. The second would be that without said blessing, we really did nothing all that special and the ones who did most of the leg work were Alphinaud with his diplomacy, Ysayle with her understanding of dragons, and Cid with his technology that allowed us to go where we needed to be. You could even bring up a third argument based on the second: the Warrior of Light is not much without their allies, and in terms of numbers, the Ishgardians can definitely rally together all of their dragoons.

Nidhogg? Nope, he just wants them to suffer more. Forever. What he is attacking is not individuals, but Ishgard as a nation - it's the concept of the country that offends him, not any individuals or particular aspects of it. Nidhogg has no interest in peace, or getting Ishgard to learn from Thordan's mistakes, or anything beyond his vengeance. No matter how many lives, mortal and dragon alike, are consumed, he will never stop. While this is understandable, it's not quite relatable, and in no way is it justifiable. He does not want to win the war - he just wants Ishgard to suffer. Forever. Let me stress that: FOREVER. Estinien acknowledges that Nidhogg could have won the war pretty much any time he wanted to, but he has no interest in winning so that more Ishgardians might suffer his wrath. It's a war on Ishgard's spirit, the very concept of Ishgard, not any one person or anything that makes up the whole.

Yup, Nidhogg sees the whole of Ishgard as one. But again, Nidhogg has no real reason to believe in Ishgardians or even *want* to give them a chance. From his point of view, as far as he knows, Ishgard deserves to suffer a fate worse than death. Again, I don't agree that all Ishgardians deserve to die either, but that is precisely Nidhogg's point of view, and it's easy to understand if you consider both his obvious PTSD and his previous attitude that trusting the Ishgardians was a mistake to begin with. To him, he's just been proven right when they murder his sister.

Putting aside the fact Nidhogg never trusted the Ishgardians in the first place, it's not quite the same as seeing your sister's murderer thrown in jail for the rest of their life. It's like exsanguinating said murderer to the point of unconsciousness, then giving them a blood transfusion so you can do it again for as long as you like. Then doing it to said murderer's spouse and children. Then their children, and so forth. It's sadism of the highest caliber, and there is no "justice" in that.

No, it's not justice, and those Ishgardians don't deserve to die for their ancestors' sins. However, they also have never put forth any real effort to do anything about the whole situation themselves, and that is my main beef with Ishgardians. They live a culture of resignation and dependence upon authority. Actually, that's a recurrent theme in Hydaelyn from what I can see, but nowhere do I see it more strongly than in Ishgard.

Why should the dragons put their faith in men and believe there is good in them after Thordan's betrayal? What proof do they have it won't happen again? There is none - that's why it's called faith. Even without proof, you simply believe.

True, but then again believing is not easy, and it has no logical basis. It's about as logical as the beastmen's faith in their Primals, and we all know where that got us. Either way, my point is that the Ishgardians themselves have done fairly nothing to help themselves. There are those like Estinien, Haurchefant and Aymeric who've put themselves forth and aided the Warrior of Light, but otherwise, we have every reason to believe that the next time a problem comes up, we'll be called in to fix it again. So has a lesson really been learned? We'll find out in future patches, I suppose.

[Frederick22]

No, it's not justice, and those Ishgardians don't deserve to die for their ancestors' sins. However, they also have never put forth any real effort to do anything about the whole situation themselves, and that is my main beef with Ishgardians. They live a culture of resignation and dependence upon authority. Actually, that's a recurrent theme in Hydaelyn from what I can see, but nowhere do I see it more strongly than in Ishgard.

On a comment above I gave you an explanation of why the Ishgardians had so much trouble into find a "peacefull solution". Read carefully please.