What is Zodiark?

[Kuwagami]

Last edited by Nalien; Today at 10:00 PM. Reason: this is what happens when you take my server away for 34 hours!

keep the flow going, you're great at it

one more stone to the foundation : if zodiark was one of the gods, then what of Hydaelyn ? The Usurper... A wannabe god who borrowed Zodiark's power somehow, thus achieving his sealing when he returned to our world ? One of the twelves who came back to ensure Zodiark remains sealed forever ? none of the above, and an other entity we never heard about in the Eorzean mythology ?

(btw, if I happen to see you some day on cerberus, I'll be sure to /wave you )

[Nalien]

one more stone to the foundation : if zodiark was one of the gods, then what of Hydaelyn ? The Usurper... A wannabe god who borrowed Zodiark's power somehow, thus achieving his sealing when he returned to our world ? One of the twelves who came back to ensure Zodiark remains sealed forever ? none of the above, and an other entity we never heard about in the Eorzean mythology ?

That's a difficult one... Just another Eikon who was chosen to remain and unite all mortals? Effectively the actual Goddess who created the Eikons? I'd lean towards the later given how she's talked about in various lore panels... Zodiark, then, doesn't get why she'd favour mortals and would aim to usurp her...

I am incline to think that ultimately she is just the most powerful Primal/Eikon though, to the point where she can create others (plot twist: Primals are just unsanctioned Eikons, that's why they're damaging, if Hydaelyn "summoned" Ifrit, instead of the Amalj'aa, he'd be an Eikon perhaps)... Something about Alexander has me speculating that Hydaelyn (the planet) is effectively just a massive Primal/Eikon... Alexander is the biggest Primal so far (well, second to Bahamut I guess) and the Illuminati seem to believe they'll survive inside him, acknowledging that a Primal such as Alexander will drain the land and result in ruin, but confident that they'll be protected inside and he'll sustain them... Take that and make a planet sized Primal/Eikon, and I think you have Hydaelyn... The Mother Crystal we frequently talk to? Remember finding Bahamut after T5? He had a fairly nice Crystal Heart, did he not? Same thing... The Burning Heart contained Bahamut Prime, I imagine the Mother Crystal contains Hydaelyn Prime and that's who we talk to, while the planet we walk on is the same as us fighting on Bahamuts claw/inside Alexander, if Hydaelyn truly is a Primal/Eikon that is...

(btw, if I happen to see you some day on cerberus, I'll be sure to /wave you )

/wave to the right person, I'm... unable to post here on my own account... >_>

[Februs]

I am incline to think that ultimately she is just the most powerful Primal/Eikon though, to the point where she can create others (plot twist: Primals are just unsanctioned Eikons, that's why they're damaging, if Hydaelyn "summoned" Ifrit, instead of the Amalj'aa, he'd be an Eikon perhaps)

I dunno... I have trouble picturing Hydaelyn and Zodiark as simple Eikons. I mean, it is definitely possible, but they don't seem to fit. Primals seem too limited...

So far, we have different levels of "God-like" beings that have some linguistically confused names, but the Odin lore panel seems to have (somewhat) cleared some of it up. From that we have learned (although there's still a lot of back and forth on it in regards to the exact definitions) that the lowest level is "Primals" or "Toshin" (the Allagan term for Primal, meaning "god of fighting"). Then, above them, is "Elder Primal" or "Eikon" (the Allagan term for Elder Primal). Now, what they have not stated is if there is a level above these two, or if all "God-like beings" can be categorized under one of these two settings. However, if you consider the known characteristics of Primals (elder or otherwise) it's hard to believe that Hydaelyn or Zodiark could be sustained in the same way as which Primals are.

For one, can we honestly say that Hydaelyn has enough "true believers" who offer up their prayers with Aether and Crystals in order to sustain her? Considering the rather extreme methods of ceremonies that have been required to create and sustain more powerful versions of Primals (ie: live sacrifice for some extreme versions, or tens of thousands of tortured followers in other cases) what would be the nature of Hydaelyn's continued existence?

Worse yet, consider Zodiark. He, certainly, does not have enough followers to warrant his existence as a Primal on the same level as Hydaelyn. No one aside from the Ascians worships him, or even knows about him. It's kind of hard to offer your faith to a god you don't even know, so I just don't see this as being the basis of their existence. Personally, I'm more inclined to see entities like Zodiark and Hydaelyn (and maybe the 12 and the Warring Triad) as "true gods," rather than Primals. Obviously I'm speculating, but what I mean here is that, contrary to any Primals we know of, neither Hydaelyn or Zodiark require faith or belief to sustain themselves. They are not insubstantial aetheric beings, but real physical beings that can manipulate, or perhaps even spawn, massive amounts of aether.

[Nalien]

Worse yet, consider Zodiark. He, certainly, does not have enough followers to warrant his existence as a Primal on the same level as Hydaelyn.

That's exactly why I suggest that they are in fact Eikons. Case and point; How many followers does Odin have? None, perhaps one at best if he is tempering someone to manifest himself... Eikons aren't simply a higher level Primal, there seems to be something special about them... Even the Ascians seem to have some distinction between them; They need the Primals for their plan, but, at least based on Unukalhai (who just has to have some connection to the Ascians), they don't want Eikons being released. Why? If Eikons are just stronger Primals, wouldn't Eikons be better to speed up their plans? The only conclusion I can come to is that Primals are bad, and Eikons are good, either that or Unukalhai is innocent, despite that post credits scene at 2.55...

Considering the rather extreme methods of ceremonies that have been required to create and sustain more powerful versions of Primals (ie: live sacrifice for some extreme versions, or tens of thousands of tortured followers in other cases) what would be the nature of Hydaelyn's continued existence?

Funny you should mention live sacrifices... What is one of the key points about life on Hydaelyn? The Lifestream... When NPCs die, they return to the Lifestream, which is a part of Hydaelyn, until their aether (but seemingly not them) is recycled for new life... We even have someone (Y'shtola) who has basically inhabited the Lifestream now, and it didn't seem like a particularly pleasant place to be... Certainly not for clothing, at least...

[Kuwagami]

How many followers does Odin have? None, perhaps one at best if he is tempering someone to manifest himself...

Odin is a special case though, as the primal as we know it is just a poor temptered lad, and the true primal is the sword itself (or so we believe, as it is the only rationnal explanation for his neverending return at this point). Though "followers" may be a strong word, Zantetsuken strives for challenge, and feeds its lust into its wielder. By extension, Zantetsuken could very well be fed by feelings of rivalry (wars, duels, etc...) rather than actual prayers. On the same level, Hydaelyn would be fed by the will to live (as Hydaelyn provides a ground to live on, air, food and aether to sustain every living being) rather than worshipping for the planet.


As for the ascians not wanting to release eikons (not entirely true either, for now it's just Unukhalai (yeah I'm convinced the guy is an ascian), and probably Elidibus), my guess is that eikons don't strain Hydaelyn's aether, and thus are just rampaging forces. They bring destruction but serve no purpose in the return of Zodiark. Thus unwanted.

[Kaiser-Ace]

I want a rematch with Odin. When the Trial came up after so long of chasing the Odin FATE around the Black Shroud I was thoroughly excited for the patch just for that.

So I'm definitely hoping for a rematch. (I wonder if that's how Greg feels about facing off against us in endless rematches? lol)

[Februs]

I want a rematch with Odin. When the Trial came up after so long of chasing the Odin FATE around the Black Shroud I was thoroughly excited for the patch just for that.

Likewise. I was supremely disappointed by the Trial against Odin. For an guy who is supposedly an Elder Primal, that was pitiful. I was glad to learn that they were basically only using it as an opening to a larger story arc... which I'm hoping eventually leads to some answers concerning what actually happened between Urth, Odin, and Wiyu (as it seems like a pretty tragic story at this point) and hopefully his very own Raid.

[Februs]

Snip.

Actually, a lot of this was already explained and confirmed by the lore panel. I learned a lot about it in a previous thread about Odin. For one, Odin is a special case, but not in the sense that Eikons are special from Primals.
It has been all but confirmed that the Odin battles we've been fighting so far are actually NOT Odin. Though it has never been explicitly stated in-game, The Dark Divinity quest line confirms that Odin's aether does not originate from the body, but from the sword.

The lore panel specified that Zantetsuken is that it is from the North (was likely a Raen weapon) and is "cursed." Odin won the sword in combat, presumably killing its original wielder, and took it on his quest to rescue Urth. He uses it to great effect, but he eventually succumbs to the corrosive influence of the blade.

From this, a few conclusions have been drawn. The most commonly held assumption right now is that Zantetsuken is a Primal. The blade works in a similar fashion to the way Iceheart became a host for Shiva. It possesses it occupant and shapes them into Odin, the only warrior it has deemed worthy of it. Any non-echo user would die in such a process, a living sacrifice to the sword. Odin's persona remains, but it is decidedly not Odin. Also, since each battle ends with the body being defeated, and not the sword, the aether never dissipates. No one has actually ever won the fight, because we haven't been fighting the real Primal.

There's also a theory that the sword feeds off of the endless supply of prayers fed to it by generations upon generations of warriors seeking to be the best that they can possibly be (that would be several thousand years’ worth of "prayers" offered unknowingly to this supreme weapon), and a few theories as to what happened to the real Odin, and whether or not he is actually alive. Some of these theories take us back to the Warring Triad (as there are similarities between Urth, Wiyu and Odin and the Fiend, Demon, and Goddess) and SE's actually makes a direct reference to Odin and the Warring Triad in their lore panel (though the reference is a little ambiguously worded) so people are just waiting for the details, but what we do know right now is that Zantetsuken is (most likely) the primal in the Odin fights, and that the body we are seeing is definitely not him. Further, the incarnation of Odin that it summons uses a method that we are very familiar with, as it has been used by several other Primals (Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan Ex, Shiva, Phoenix, and the knights of the round, all use the same or a very similar method).

[Nalien]

From this, a few conclusions have been drawn. The most commonly held assumption right now is that Zantetsuken is a Primal.

Isn't this debunked in game though?

Unukalhai specifically states that Odin is an Eikon, and that Eikons are different than Primals. I'm aware Zantetsuken is the real threat from what is learned in the Odin (Extreme) plot, but as far as I'm concerned, Odin and Zantetsuken might as well be synonymous.

[Februs]

Unukalhai specifically states that Odin is an Eikon, and that Eikons are different than Primals. I'm aware Zantetsuken is the real threat from what is learned in the Odin (Extreme) plot, but as far as I'm concerned, Odin and Zantetsuken might as well be synonymous.

Odin, or the current incarnation of him that we are familiar with, is and Eikon, as in he is an Elder Primal. Eikons are different from Primals, but only in name and power.The essence of a Eikon is the same as a Primal. It is a summoned, god-like, being. That's it. The comparison someone else made in another thread was, "a Farrari is a super fast car... but it's still a car." Same deal.

Also, the version of Odin we are familiar with is a farce. It's similar to how Tiamat described Bahamut. This is not the real Odin. Zantetsuken is simply making a phantom. So, technically, the Odin we know is a Primal conjured by Zantetsuken, however, the real Odin may have an entirely different nature. So, we might have to be careful when referring to Odin in the future, as the Odin Zantetsuken summons is not the same as the real one, and we don't even know for sure that the real one is dead.