What is Zodiark?

[Fenral]

Woah, there. Hold up. Full stop.

I think you read the ending to the PLD 60 quest wrong. We aren't crushing Constaint's dream at all. Solkzagyl, bastard that he is, was manipulating everything behind the scenes to give Constaint a suitable origin story to shape him into a "true Paladin," but that's all it was: manipulation. Even Constaint realizes that something is up, and the end result is that he isn't truly able to gain a Paladin's strength. Beating him isn't taking the light of his crystal forever and stripping him of his abilities (though if that were the case, it would explain why Jenlyns is so useless), but simply asserting that, given the circumstances, you are the stronger.

The way I see it, the entire thing was more about defeating Solkzagyl and his flawed teaching logic. We won because we were the closest to the ideal Paladin, neither manipulating others nor being handed our powers on a platter. Solkzagyl is a bastard, plain and simple, so there is no way in all the seven hells I would let him beat me, and poor Constaint, who has all the qualities to become a great Paladin, wasn't given the opportunity to achieve that through his own strength, instead being led along a lined path towards the "destiny" Solkzagyl had decided for him. Simply having the gear, the crystal, and some semblance of an adventure, rounded out with a tragic origin story doesn't make a Paladin.

When Constaint leaves at the end, though, his dream isn't destroyed and he isn't giving up on becoming a Paladin. He even keeps the soul crystal and gear, neither of which would be possible if he wasn't worthy to begin with (since the crystal has to choose). He's just going to follow your example and become one on his own, without the shortcuts, so he can challenge you again.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

Can't deny Solkzagyl isn't the nicest guy ever and Constaint is still pretty motivated, but still. There is light travelling from their crystal to yours when you beat them, so there is some power-grabbing here.

Maybe we didn't crush Constaint's dream, but we still took a part of a power he's spent time growing, because we were able to think that we needed to beat him.

[Februs]

Can't deny Solkzagyl isn't the nicest guy ever and Constaint is still pretty motivated, but still. There is light travelling from their crystal to yours when you beat them, so there is some power-grabbing here.

Again, not true. There is nothing, anywhere, in the entire Pld questline that indicates the light transfer from one crystal to the next is a "power grab" of any kind. Aetheric light is not the basis of the Pld's power, and it is clearly stated in the early dialogue of the original Pld arc that the only reason a Pld crystal is necessary is so that the recorded knowledge of our ancestors can be passed down to us. This is a proven fact that is stated in the quest dialogue as well as the job lore, which implies that the aetheric light you see transfer between the Pld stones is nothing more than a process of acknowledgment and possibly data transfer. The light of multiple Pld crystals accumulate within ours because we are worthy of it. We are the strongest of the Pld's and that which is closest to being a "true Pld," much like our ancestors were.

Also, keep in mind that our very own Pld soul crystal is not strictly ours. We received it from Solkzagyl. It was his. This means that our foundation for the knowledge and skill set of a Pld was bequeathedto us by another Pld. We didn't steal it by beating the guy who came before us and eating his crystal light, and he didn't smack us with his own superiority. He merely gave us the tool we needed to grow and prosper. Solkzagyl also didn't lose any power after giving us the crystal. If anything, he gained power, and a fancy new set of duds, between our first meeting and our last.

The status of being a "true Pld" is the whole purpose behind getting Oathkeeper to glow, as well as that behind nurturing Constaint into a proper Pld. Constaint is driven by Solkagyl's death to see the quest to the end, but he does not acknowledge himself as a Pld at any point in the story because of Solkagyl. If anything, he frequently doubts his worthiness. It is only though our actions and tutelage that he begins to see himself as a Pld.

One of the major themes of that quest line was to foster a new generation of Pld by restoring the old ways of the true Pld. This is represented by Oathkeeper's restoration, which would have not been possible if the Pld ideals were in any way tarnished by the wielder. Solkzagyl's method was wrong, which is why he lost and why Oathkeeper did not glow for him. Our method was correct, as we supported Constaint the entire time and encouraged him to improve himself and become worthy of the legacy. None of that would have been possible if the light transfer between crystals had somehow been a power grab that kicked Constant (and Janlyns, for that matter) back down to the bottom of the barrel.

[Enkidoh]

Also, keep in mind that our very own Pld soul crystal is not strictly ours. We received it from Solkzagyl. It was his. This means that our foundation for the knowledge and skill set of a Pld was bequeathedto us by another Pld. We didn't steal it by beating the guy who came before us and eating his crystal light, and he didn't smack us with his own superiority. He merely gave us the tool we needed to grow and prosper. Solkzagyl also didn't lose any power after giving us the crystal. If anything, he gained power, and a fancy new set of duds, between our first meeting and our last.

Actually, that's not entirely true. Solkzagyl did give you a soul crystal the first time you meet him, but when you returned to Jenlyns, he sees you already have one and demands you give it to him to dispose of, saying that the player can only wear a soul crystal "granted to you by a Captain of the Sultansworn" - the player's own Soul Crystal is one Jenlyns gives you after you return the one Solkzagyl gave you:

Jenlyns: "You have taken your first steps on a new path, and you have earned the right to bear this, the Soul of the Paladin. Upon it's surface are carved the deeds of paladins of eras past. <He/She> who bears it commands the respect of all knights of honour."
Jenlyns: "Bahamut's fang! You already possess the crystal? And you say it was given to you by an unknown free paladin, who told you to hand it to me?"
(The player then has to physically open their inventory and trade the soul crystal to Jenlyns to continue, which then disappears from their key item list in the inventory)
Jenlyns: "Curse him, he has made a mockery of the trial. That crystal you bear is indeed the Soul of the Paladin. But it is disgraced, impure. It was stolen from the Sultansworn."
Jenlyns: "The man who gave you this soul is the very traitor whom I have been seeking these many moons."
Jenlyns: "He is an oathbreaker who bent the knee to the Ul'dahn sultanate and who swore allegiance to the Sultansworn, but then single-handedly sullied our name, and trampled it underfoot until it was lost, perhaps forever. How dare he give counsel on honour, on the paladin way!?"
Jenlyns: "Give me that soul. It is polluted and I must dispose of it. When you come to wield your sword as a paladin, the only soul you may wear is that which is bestowed on you by a captain of the Sultansworn."
Jenlyns: "That traitor is no Sultansworn, still less a captain. By giving you a soul, he insulted not only the brotherhood, but you too."

Given the fact Solkzagyl had left the organization by that stage, it seems he was basically returning what was not even his to begin with, effectively stating that the PLD soul crystal at least, besides being a container for the accumulated memories and experiences of previous owners, it is also a token of the Sultansworn's authority, rather like a badge or medallion - hence Solkzagyl returning it. Besides, we're not even actual members of the Sultansworn, we're free PLDs - knight errants effectively, thus wearing the soul crystal seems to have even more importance for that reason. But I digress.

But yeah, I agree with everything else you mentioned Februs.

[Februs]

Snip.

Ah, very true, very true. I had forgotten... though, point remains the same, and it actually strengthens the notion that Solkzagyl's method of raising a Pld is incorrect. He, himself, is a fine Pld, but he is utter rubbish at teaching new ones how to be a Pld lol.

It also made me wonder where they get these crystals. They say that the memory of former holders are within them, so does that mean that there are a fixed number of them that are being passed around? Or do they fashion new ones for each person and simply imbue them with the necessary knowledge and aether...?

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

Again, not true. There is nothing, anywhere, in the entire Pld questline that indicates the light transfer from one crystal to the next is a "power grab" of any kind. Aetheric light is not the basis of the Pld's power, and it is clearly stated in the early dialogue of the original Pld arc that the only reason a Pld crystal is necessary is so that the recorded knowledge of our ancestors can be passed down to us. This is a proven fact that is stated in the quest dialogue as well as the job lore, which implies that the aetheric light you see transfer between the Pld stones is nothing more than a process of acknowledgment and possibly data transfer. The light of multiple Pld crystals accumulate within ours because we are worthy of it. We are the strongest of the Pld's and that which is closest to being a "true Pld," much like our ancestors were.

The heart of our disagreement seems to be crystal jobs and what they are... So let's focus on that. I don't remember about each and every job, but I know what WARs' and PLDs' are supposed to be : something that contains the memory of former WARs/PLDs, and, although you're not dependant on them, you have your own strength, they give you more power. How ?

When you have one of those crystals, you're not simply you anymore. There are others, probably dozens, that stands with you and help you fight. Of course, they're not real fighters, but they give you more strength, more reactivity, more instinct, and things like that. It helps you in focusing more power.

The same thing can be seen with BLMs' crystals : you can become a BLM without one, you'll just die really quick because you can't wield the BLMs' power without it. Crystals are not the source of jobs' powers, but it's a big help, and it contains a sort of power.

And then again, I strongly think there exists some Aether Conservation Law, because it wouldn't make sense otherwise. In fact, if the ACL didn't exist, there wouldn't even be a problem about summoning primals : you'd just have to create Aether proportionnaly to the number of primals summoned and that'd be it. Therefore, crystals, containing power, and power being aether, crystals contain aether, and that aether, in PLDs's case, is represented by a strong light. It's not simply datas, there's no data in there, or if it is, it's datas contained in the Aether.

It is said several times that Aether holds a bit of personality from its wielder (the whole spiritbonding thing, in fact, depicts that), so Crystals seems to me as small things that can spiritbond with several people, and thus, be the combination of all their aether. For PLDs, the crystal only spiritbonds with the light inside PLDs.

The transfer from one crystal to the other is then Aether, containing, it's true, the spirit of other PLDs, in a Aether-y way. And, as you can't create Aether, that Aether has to be deleted from the crystal it formerly occupied.

So yeah, Constaint and Solkzagyl are not sent back to zero, but they lose some of their power anyway.

Yet, I have to agree on oathkeeper, I didn't see it that way, and you may be right. But I still think it's not the only way to see things here, and I still think these duels were highly selfish and power-driven.

[Kallera]

Getting back on the topics of darkness...

People were talking about the allagan empire and how the stagnation of their society may be an example of the "flood of light" that require a Warrior of Darkness to push back. But it seems the Ascians are unique in their own role...unless we count archons and their machinations (the scions) as entities designed with maintaining the status quo of power.

[Februs]

Getting back on the topics of darkness...

The Ascions are an interesting bunch.

*Warning, MASSIVE FF Tactics spoilers here.

[SPOILER] In terms of their own "lore" again, SE is taking ques from FF Tactics. Each Ascian holds the name of a Lucavi from that game. In Tactics, the Lucavi were demons (each represented by a zodiac sign) that sought to revive their leader, Ultima, the High Seraph. The revival of Ultima required a very large blood sacrifice. So there are some parallels between the Ascians in FFXIV and the lucavi in tactics.

Also, the Lucavi have a false history in Tactics. The public record of the Zodiac stones counts them as "holy relics" that once belonged to the Zodiac Brave knights whom used their power to defeat a demon (presumably, Ultima). However, during coarse of the game, Ramza discovers a secret scripture or gospel of one of the followers of the Zodiac Braves that tells their true history, explaining the corruption of the crystals and the Demons they house.

In FFXII, this history is explained in a little more detail. It is stated that each of the Lucavi were created by the gods as a means of controlling or ruling over one or more specific parts of existence. For example: Mateus, the Corrupt, was born in opposition to Lahabrea, and was referred to as the Abyssal Celebrant and Scion of light. However, each of these godly creations were eventually corrupted either by their own job, like Mateus, or turned against the gods by Ultima (originally tasked with guiding souls to heaven and aiding in their resurrection) who led them in rebellion.

The only one who was not involved was Zodiark, who, though not explicitly stated as such, we can assume was born in opposition to Elidibus, as Elidibus was the one who originally summoned him in FF Tactics (though, under the name Zodiac, instead).

It is also noteworthy that while Elidibus is in FF Tactics, he stands apart from the remaining Lucavi. He is not part of the main story, and seems to have no relation to or interest in reviving Ultima. Likewise, in FFXIV, Elidibus stands apart from the remaining Ascians. Though, he seems to be far more attuned to Zodiark than any of them. If anything, it is implied that Elidibus is following the "True" path of the Ascians, doing only what is necessary. The remaining Ascians, similar to their Demon counterparts the Lucavi, have become corrupted by their own power and "job." Their goal is the same as Elidibus's, but they seem to have become lost in the many millennium they've been doing this. They take too much pleasure in the work and have fallen from their true path in favour of gratuitously causing choas for the sake of it. I have a feeling that they are misinterpreting Zodiark's will/needs. I also have a feeling that the "revival" of Zodiark requires a more specific ceremony that the other Ascian's have been ignoring or forgetting, and that only Elidibus is truly in the know. [/SPOILER]

[Kaiser-Ace]

Getting back on the topics of darkness...

People were talking about the allagan empire and how the stagnation of their society may be an example of the "flood of light" that require a Warrior of Darkness to push back. But it seems the Ascians are unique in their own role...unless we count archons and their machinations (the scions) as entities designed with maintaining the status quo of power.

Ascians are the "Harbingers of Chaos" which means that they are neither light nor Darkness. So The WoL and WoD both are little more than pawns for the Chaos.

[Fenral]

Ascians are the "Harbingers of Chaos" which means that they are neither light nor Darkness. So The WoL and WoD both are little more than pawns for the Chaos.

Remember that the factions of light and darkness in Dissidia are led by Cosmos (order) against Chaos (chaos). While "balance" certainly sounds like contributing to the side of order, it is more like a balance between the controlled and uncontrolled elements in the world. Because that element is, by nature, uncontrollable, conflict is born and the balance wavers, but that conflict is what allows both sides to grow. Ending it in a total victory for either side would be the same as ending life, at least as we know it.