BRDs not using WM -_-

[Kathyz]

Im still level 57 but the only time i had to turn off WN was in the first bos of The Aery when i had a tether. I really start to like the Bard when they got the WM before that i only level it up because why not. but now readin this posts, now i understand why i recive more commends with my Bard than my Tank sometimes xD.

[BLaCKnBLu3B3RRY]

WM might not be much worth using until getting Iron Jaws at lv56. Empyreal Arrow is a really strong action for BRD, and even more so because of WM. so using WM before getting Iron Jaws may or may not be worth it. like if their is a high-priority target and the other DPS doesn't switch to it, you may need the burst in damage. but after that you will be stuck for the next 12seconds. so if the target needs to die quickly you will have that DPS and/or time loss from casting, so if you need that burst try to use it towards the end.

this is the way i was able to figure it up, also keep in mind i am still only lv56 BRD.

without DoT and without a damage buff WM ended being around a 15~20% loss in DPS. (vs the same, but without WM.) without DoT and with a damage buff it ended up being around a 5~10% DPS loss. (vs the same, but without WM and without the damage buff) with DoT and without a damage buff it ended up equaling out. (vs the same, but without WM) but also note that this was without using any WM exclusive actions. so even without using damage buffs, just using the WM exclusive actions can allow for superior DPS.


i think the biggest things to keep in mind when deciding to use WM or not is things like damage over time and how long the encounter will last. if you have already used things like Empyreal Arrow and find yourself in a situation where you don't need to apply anymore DoT, then using WM could be a decrease in DPS.




anyhow... i don't know, and am not a master BRD or anything ^_^

[JackFross]

anyhow... i don't know, and am not a master BRD or anything ^_^

WM is a strict increase in DPS at all times.

Cast times don't impact your dps at all. You have a 1.5s cast timer and a 2.5s gcd (at base ss) right? So then your first hit comes at 1.5s. Your next one at 4.0s. Next at 6.5s. Without WM, it's 0, 2.5, 5.0. Same distance between hits. It's not a loss to be using it, and each of those hits under WM is 30% stronger than the equivalent hit out of it. The problem for 52-53 before EA is on the scene is that the 30% damage buff is competing with the loss of auto-attacks and the Bard's inability to understand how to cast, having been mobile for the past 51 levels. I'll have to test it when I get it myself, but I'm fairly sure that WM will be a dps gain *at the very least* in aoe pulls, because every RoD proc is 30% stronger.

[RiceisNice]

...

WM is a dps loss if you only do heavy and straight shots, and you break even give or take if you use it at soon as you get it at 52. You need empyreal arrow to see a net gain in damage on single target. All Iron jaws realistically does is make you more TP efficient. It;s a definite increase with AoE though, and it's hard to quanitify BL/RoD into WM's damage due to the oGCD clipping where you're more likely to miss an entire oGCD reset.

Outside of that, player skill shouldn't play any role in looking at a skill, the 30% boost does not nessesacrly outweigh the loss of auto attacks unless you have stronger/more oGCDs to make up for it (which agian, its hard to quantify the likes of Bloodletter/RoD because of the oGCD clipping with cast times)

[JackFross]

Quick and dirty number crunching--

A Bard with a base critrate of 15% is constantly at 25%. Every dot on the mob has 25% critrate at least. This is bare minimum (on average) 1 in 4 dot ticks causing a BL/RoD proc. That's an average of 1 per 6 seconds in a single-target fight, and it's a maximum no matter what of 1 per 3 seconds no matter how high your critrate goes, due to the way dot ticks work, unless you godmode and hit the proc immediately as you get it and the other dot ticks immediately for critical giving you a new Bloodletter. Not sure if that's something that should even be taken into consideration.

Bards have the following oGCD skills to weave into their normal rotation:
Bloodletter - 150 pot / ??s
Repelling Shot - 80 pot / 30s
Blunt Arrow - 50 pot / 30s

Empyreal Arrow - 220 pot / 15s
Sidewinder - 250 pot / 60s

The first 3 are available from 52-53, which is where we're wondering if you can reliably get gains from WM. The way to look at it is to figure out the standard action PPS of a Bard and compare it against their AA PPS and see if boosting the action PPS by 30% with no other changes would eclipse AA PPS.

Correct if I'm wrong, but - barring any SS procs (since those would be identical in either situation and wouldn't change things by any notable degree), a usual Bard "rotation" would look something like (assuming 2.4s gcd):

SS > WB > VB > HS > HS > HS > HS > repeat.

Might be a bit longer, optimally, so we'll use this as a marginally sub-optimal version to see if it'll still outweigh the gains from autos. We're gonna assume 100% uptime on SS and our 25% crit rate from earlier (so 75% of the time we do 100%, 25% of the time we do 155%). The time of this rotation would be 7*2.4 = 16.1s. Numbers time.

Base hits:
140+60+100+150+150+150+150 = 900 potency.
Adjusted for crit, that comes to 1023.75 potency.
~63.58 pps.

DoTs:
45+35 = 80 potency.
Adjusted for crit: 91
That's 91 potency every 3 seconds.
~30.33 pps.

oGCD skills:
Rep+Blunt
130 pot / 30s
Adjusted: 147.875 pot
~4.93 pps.

Bloodletter~
By earlier calculations, I'm assuming an average of 1 reset per 6s.
150 pot / 6s
Adjusted: 170.625
~28.44 pps.

Altogether, we're looking at a total for skills coming to:
~127.29 pps.


Auto-attacks are a little trickier to calculate. All the endgame bows (190+) are a delay of 3.04, and autos are 100 potency (approximately, if you compare their damage to a skill's damage).

So ~100/3.04 = 32.89 pps.

Comparing these two, we see that

32.89/127.29 = ~25.84%


It's damn close, and I might have mucked up some calculations here and there, but this looks to me like WM is a strict dps gain even before you have EA and IJ, at least when you can stand stock-still and perform perfectly. And without WM up, you need to be hitting all of your autos (strafing/lockon) or you're losing EVEN MORE by not having it up.

[AskaRay]

WM is a dps loss if you only do heavy and straight shots

But only...certain bards... not use their DOTS.
Like at that point, if you're just using those two attacks, it doesn't matter if you have WM or not your damage output is gonna be abysmal

[Shirobi]

"This is very counter productive no dungeon should take 45mins cause you choose to play selfishly.."

No one should feel they have the right to tell another person how to play in a game the other person is paying for. THAT is selfishness.


This spin doctored version that was created by the elitist of ffxi needed to die with ffxi.

TL;DR Dont tell me how to play. Leave or kick me from the group. But be ready to deal with a GM after I report you for kicking me for a non-supported reason.

[RiceisNice]

"This is very counter productive no dungeon should take 45mins cause you choose to play selfishly.."

No one should feel they have the right to tell another person how to play in a game the other person is paying for. THAT is selfishness.


This spin doctored version that was created by the elitist of ffxi needed to die with ffxi.

TL;DR Dont tell me how to play. Leave or kick me from the group. But be ready to deal with a GM after I report you for kicking me for a non-supported reason.

For the record, getting kicked for purposely sandbagging or otherwise playing intentionally bad is enough of a reason to get kicked.

[RinchanNau]

It's actually a valid reason to kick people for difference in play style. Provided the ones who kick you do not harass you for low DPS they're very unlikely to receive any sort of penalty.

Sure you pay 12.99. But so does everyone else. You should be respectful of their time and money just as much as your expect them to be respectful of you paying a sub.

[aabe]

TL;DR Dont tell me how to play. Leave or kick me from the group. But be ready to deal with a GM after I report you for kicking me for a non-supported reason.

except for the fact that you actually CAN be kicked for being dumb in a dungeon run.

Right here is actually why a lot of the playerbase is irreparably bad. I have no right to offer someone advice that improves their DPS or their tanking/healing when they are clearly causing a problem, because they pay for the game so they're allowed to be dumb right?