The issue nobody wants to address

[Ryel]

You Decide!

Though your baseless accusations make me question your motivation for parses.

Did I do it right? Make baseless assumptions.

Not to jump on this.. but they actually did quote a base for the accusation which was your own wording.. whether it's correct or not I'm not really interested in debating but to say they didn't have one is simply incorrect.

Like.. you literally quoted them stating that...

[Jynx]

Was it really that baseless though? If you actually were a decent healer, you would KNOW for a fact that healing someone who stands in fires on purpose is never a good idea and that re-raising someone who has died more than once in an encounter would kill your resources if you were the sole healer.

Do you really need that in party parse then? You seem to have no issue deciding if the player is bad if they are getting reamed by mechanics.

Rare would be the player missing easy dps checks but not being reamed by mechanics and avoidable damage.

[dank1]

This will be my last reply in this thread, and I shall be blunt also.

The reality is that if a player who is terrible at their job lies about their ability when joining your PF group, then they deserve no tolerance for trying to obtain a carry by deception. If they can't pull their weight, the party leader is within their rights to kick the player from the group, and report them for harassment by lying in order to join the group. I don't know what the GMs would do, but certainly you can kick them, because it is YOUR party.

In Duty Finder, it's no one's and everyone's party, there is no expectation of ability, no lying about ability to get into a run, nothing like that at all. The Duty Finder is for players of all ability. In that environment, a parser by default becomes a weapon that can be used to exclude players who are either new or not as good as others might wish. That is a major change from the current environment in which the Duty Finder is a useful resource for new players, and others alike. Imposing a parser ultimately makes the resource designed to help new players and others a much less forgiving and tolerant place and effectively cuts off that avenue for players who need pick up groups.

You always frame this discussion with the thought that all these players out there are going to force you to carry them through content. The trouble is that in fact Duty Finder is expressly designed for players who can't get into a group, to run specific content. Duty Roulette is explicitly there to help less able or newer players through content so that they can progress as well. That is what Duty Finder is for. All of the DPS checks and specific performance demands and 'standards' of performance you or anyone wishes to impose on others can be done in PF groups or your own statics already without any repercussions on you.

If you make Duty Finder a competitive, and intolerant resource, you are effectively disenfranchising a lot of players new and old, and I think you will drive players from the game. You might say, that's fine because they were not good enough any way. It's not fine, at all. This game is accepting of players of all capability and everyone can enjoy the game and it's story. Duty Finder and Duty Roulette are part of that accessibility. If parsing was implemented as you advocate, I believe it would have an immediate effect, and change the game forever. That change would make it much less tolerant and accessible. I won't hazard a guess at how many players would be lost, but I would estimate it as a larger group than the end-game community.

It seems to me that the biggest issue here is that this game is designed and implemented in such a way that the player-base includes gamers of very different abilities. Those advocating parser use seem to me to disagree with this philosophy, and would happily see players of lesser skill either improve or get out. Suddenly an inclusive game becomes much more closed and exclusive. So much for altruism.

DF: DF has never been officially stated as a tool for new players, in fact a lot of content when first introduced isnt even available on the DF, UNTIL players are familiar with said content a few months down, that in and of itself should help us imply what DF should be used for.

Now, I'm not a closed minded individual and I understand new players will get into the DF (usually identified by their low ilvl gear) and I'm sure more of the community who cares about performance is also smart enough to identify new players or are at least vocal and ask these players; these are not the players we're all complaining about. As had been made obvious before the players were concerned with are those who CAN (keyword CAN) pull their weight but dont.
A parser let's me know just that, no if ands or buts, of course again having a brain I will speak out and inquire, if I receive no response or some bs backlash it it my player given right to vote kick anyone I deem to be harassing our group (i.e by not performing)

I initially made this thread to inquire as to why these players who expect to be carried or get angry when asked why theyre underperforming get coddled so much by this community, to this page in the thead there has been no answer why, only excuses as to why said player may have not been performing, which I refuse to believe is the reason why in 90% of instances. And I'm still baffled as to why some of the community tries to make excuses for these players in the first place anyway

What it boils down to; many people cry gloom and doom when asking for players who are being carried to be held accountable yet they fail to see the issue we're having NOW, able players arent performing, personally I dont think they deserve free passes

[OPneedNerfs]

Do you really need that in party parse then? You seem to have no issue deciding if the player is bad if they are getting reamed by mechanics.

Rare would be the player missing easy dps checks but not being reamed by mechanics and avoidable damage.

This might be a shocking revelation to you, but people can do bad dps while doing mechanics and not stand in fires.

Your argument was never that. Your statement was that parsers would somehow make people stand in fires more in favor of numbers which I have mentioned won't help because dead DPS do no DPS.

Which you then stated would not be the case as healers would focus more on healing a dps purposely standing in fires which has been proven to be not true by any competent healer.

[Whiteroom]

snip

I think that is a really big question, I had a little thought on it today, unfortunately it would take forever and a day to write down. Some of it is social, some not. I would say it comes from a lot of different factors. One of the main being the social movement I touched on earlier in the thread, "The everyone gets an award" movement.

I also think a lot of it has to do with the way the game was developed. Specifically Duty Roulettes and Relic Quests, and the Tomestone system.
I'm tired here and don't want to write all the fine points as it was a passing thought, and not fleshed out. Please keep that in mind.

By this I mean there was a problem. All MMOs face it. The bulk of players have made their way through the early content. Now new players will have to wait forever to queue for dungeons, leading to dissatisfaction and quitting the game. Being able to level alt classes helps this.

But it is not enough. So you tack on daily roulette bonuses, people still leveling get a sweet chunk of exp in turn for filling out those lower level queues that need filling. Not so bad, most are still leveling, so dungeons are not played out yet.

Now we face the problem not only of keeping the newer dungeons full, but keeping people busy between patches. Insert Tomestone farming and bonuses. I for example will have run the two new dungeons a minimum of around 100 times by the time 3.1 hits. Yes, I am tired of them. But Daily roulette is the quickest way for me to get the tomes to gear up anyone of the 5 and soon to be 7 classes I have at 60.

Now we are still facing long queue times, so we insert some Relic Quest RNG runs! I'm sure that sends shivers down some spines. I ran into one person on their 42nd run of Sastasha HM. And I've read of people having 70-100 runs of a single dungeon for a drop!

Well before the time you get through this, almost everyone is in speed run mode. The faster you run, the faster you finish, the more you finish, the quicker you get your drop. The quicker you get your drop, the quicker you move on to the next. Even without that, you are sick of the dungeon, and want to get them over with, and you know it inside out.

On top of all this, you have your hard to get drops from all other places, like your CT and soon to be Void Ark runs. You need to get onto those drops! It has been beat and abused and conditioned into us over the years of gaming!

So, at some point, some start flipping out at the slow players, while most just put their head down and drag them through it. There is less helping people, and more dragging. People think they are doing fine and dandy because, from the first time they went through, things were going fine, they never had to perfect the mechanics and their rotations, as there was consistently people who were overgeared and had run the dungeon tons of times, facerolling everything in their path. Either way, its harder to learn.

So now you haven't had to give it your all in dps checks, as you were being carried, you think everything's fine because of the same, and there is no metric to confirm or disprove this belief. Now, queue for BEX.

Of course, this idea is not fully fleshed out, and I'm tired, so I think I missed a large connection I made in the middle, earlier, but I am tired, and it's thanksgiving up here, so I had a couple earlier. So I'll leave the above nonsense for clearer heads right now.

But something along the lines of the devs solution to one problem, helped create another. Their solution coupled with the whole, everything must be a grind mentality, causes carries.

[Gilraen]

DF: DF has never been officially stated as a tool for new players, in fact a lot of content when first introduced isnt even available on the DF, UNTIL players are familiar with said content a few months down, that in and of itself should help us imply what DF should be used for.

Wow... I don't know where you got that drivel but that's so far from true it's disturbing. Near all content, when first unlocked, tells you rather directly to beat it through Duty Finder. The exceptions, and these are exceptions, are raids like Coil or Savage Alexander and the recent extreme primals. Everything else has been unlocked through a quest that leads to Duty Finder. So yes, Duty Finder is officially stated as a tool for new players.

[Colorful]

So yes, Duty Finder is officially stated as a tool for new players.

It is? Please do tell me where it states that it exists to be a tool to new players. It is a tool for, believe it or not, all players. It is a tool for convenience and always has been, period.

Having said that, being a new player in a level 60 dungeon does not excuse you performing poorly in a dungeon that is almost entirely tank and spank, being a new player does not excuse you from ignoring advice from other players, being a new player does not give you the right to waste everyone's time by not listening to the input of your party members on how to perform mechanics. You get the idea. If you come into any content that requires you perform to any level, and you perform below that level, expect to be kicked. This is how it is in any multiplayer game.

[Belhi]

I understand the issue people have with lazy players but I also understand why people are against parsers. Official parsers WILL lead to more elitism and that WILL be directed at new or inexperienced players, more often that lazy ones. That leads to a more toxic environment in the community and drives people from the game.

There exist unofficial parsers and SE seems to have a policy of 'don't mention you using them and we won't punish you for it'. This means you can theoretically tell if someone is doing badly. You just cant chew them out for it. It doesn't stop you leaving the group and finding a better one or using the Vote Kick system. It just means players can't basically be elitist jerks about it and harass less skilled players.

[ChandraNoctis]

How about making it an option in party finder? When creating groups you could select parse or non-parse?

More elite groups would likely always select parse and those who don't want to be parsed know in advance not to join or to create their own groups?

[Whiteroom]

How about making it an option in party finder? When creating groups you could select parse or non-parse?

More elite groups would likely always select parse and those who don't want to be parsed know in advance not to join or to create their own groups?

Someone posed a similar idea earlier as well, where when queueing for DF, you selected a Parse or Non-parse DF. People seemed to ignore it, the crowd against Parsing especially so. You can only guess why.

I understand the issue people have with lazy players but I also understand why people are against parsers. Official parsers WILL lead to more elitism and that WILL be directed at new or inexperienced players, more often that lazy ones. That leads to a more toxic environment in the community and drives people from the game.

There exist unofficial parsers and SE seems to have a policy of 'don't mention you using them and we won't punish you for it'. This means you can theoretically tell if someone is doing badly. You just cant chew them out for it. It doesn't stop you leaving the group and finding a better one or using the Vote Kick system. It just means players can't basically be elitist jerks about it and harass less skilled players.

Except, a whole segment of the population cannot use them. A very large segment. As mentioned before, there is already a toxic portion of the population. Will a parser expand that in a measurable way, or will that portion who is already being toxic, use parsers to with their behavior.

After the millionth thread can't you all agree to disagree? I hope they put in a parser of some kind so I can see if the people who disrupt dungeon runs with complaints of low dps are being 100 and not just being keyboard kings.

Nah... we all know that is impossible. Everyone of both sides of the argument will always want to have the last word.

Actually, there is a proper response to that a few pages back. On why people cannot agree to disagree. Some may understand that it's not about a last word. Will you?