The issue nobody wants to address

[Gilraen]

DF: DF has never been officially stated as a tool for new players, in fact a lot of content when first introduced isnt even available on the DF, UNTIL players are familiar with said content a few months down, that in and of itself should help us imply what DF should be used for.

Wow... I don't know where you got that drivel but that's so far from true it's disturbing. Near all content, when first unlocked, tells you rather directly to beat it through Duty Finder. The exceptions, and these are exceptions, are raids like Coil or Savage Alexander and the recent extreme primals. Everything else has been unlocked through a quest that leads to Duty Finder. So yes, Duty Finder is officially stated as a tool for new players.

[Colorful]

So yes, Duty Finder is officially stated as a tool for new players.

It is? Please do tell me where it states that it exists to be a tool to new players. It is a tool for, believe it or not, all players. It is a tool for convenience and always has been, period.

Having said that, being a new player in a level 60 dungeon does not excuse you performing poorly in a dungeon that is almost entirely tank and spank, being a new player does not excuse you from ignoring advice from other players, being a new player does not give you the right to waste everyone's time by not listening to the input of your party members on how to perform mechanics. You get the idea. If you come into any content that requires you perform to any level, and you perform below that level, expect to be kicked. This is how it is in any multiplayer game.

[dank1]

Wow... I don't know where you got that drivel but that's so far from true it's disturbing. Near all content, when first unlocked, tells you rather directly to beat it through Duty Finder. The exceptions, and these are exceptions, are raids like Coil or Savage Alexander and the recent extreme primals. Everything else has been unlocked through a quest that leads to Duty Finder. So yes, Duty Finder is officially stated as a tool for new players.

I'd like you to know that it isn't "nearly all" content being initially released in the DF if we want to point technicalities we can add up every piece of content kept out of the DF at first and it might almost add up to what is added to the DF upon release, still that doesnt change the fact that just by SE keeping even any part of content out of DF means that the DF isnt supposed to be a learning ground, i will settle though with saying the level 1-50 or maybe even 1-59 dungeons serve as a learning ground themselves but once past that should at least know your basic rotation. Not knowing mechanics is fine, but ASK.

I think that is a really big question, I had a little thought on it today, unfortunately it would take forever and a day to write down. Some of it is social, some not. I would say it comes from a lot of different factors. One of the main being the social movement I touched on earlier in the thread, "The everyone gets an award" movement.

I also think a lot of it has to do with the way the game was developed. Specifically Duty Roulettes and Relic Quests, and the Tomestone system.
I'm tired here and don't want to write all the fine points as it was a passing thought, and not fleshed out. Please keep that in mind.

By this I mean there was a problem. All MMOs face it. The bulk of players have made their way through the early content. Now new players will have to wait forever to queue for dungeons, leading to dissatisfaction and quitting the game. Being able to level alt classes helps this.

But it is not enough. So you tack on daily roulette bonuses, people still leveling get a sweet chunk of exp in turn for filling out those lower level queues that need filling. Not so bad, most are still leveling, so dungeons are not played out yet.

Now we face the problem not only of keeping the newer dungeons full, but keeping people busy between patches. Insert Tomestone farming and bonuses. I for example will have run the two new dungeons a minimum of around 100 times by the time 3.1 hits. Yes, I am tired of them. But Daily roulette is the quickest way for me to get the tomes to gear up anyone of the 5 and soon to be 7 classes I have at 60.

Now we are still facing long queue times, so we insert some Relic Quest RNG runs! I'm sure that sends shivers down some spines. I ran into one person on their 42nd run of Sastasha HM. And I've read of people having 70-100 runs of a single dungeon for a drop!

Well before the time you get through this, almost everyone is in speed run mode. The faster you run, the faster you finish, the more you finish, the quicker you get your drop. The quicker you get your drop, the quicker you move on to the next. Even without that, you are sick of the dungeon, and want to get them over with, and you know it inside out.

On top of all this, you have your hard to get drops from all other places, like your CT and soon to be Void Ark runs. You need to get onto those drops! It has been beat and abused and conditioned into us over the years of gaming!

So, at some point, some start flipping out at the slow players, while most just put their head down and drag them through it. There is less helping people, and more dragging. People think they are doing fine and dandy because, from the first time they went through, things were going fine, they never had to perfect the mechanics and their rotations, as there was consistently people who were overgeared and had run the dungeon tons of times, facerolling everything in their path. Either way, its harder to learn.

So now you haven't had to give it your all in dps checks, as you were being carried, you think everything's fine because of the same, and there is no metric to confirm or disprove this belief. Now, queue for BEX.

Of course, this idea is not fully fleshed out, and I'm tired, so I think I missed a large connection I made in the middle, earlier, but I am tired, and it's thanksgiving up here, so I had a couple earlier. So I'll leave the above nonsense for clearer heads right now.

But something along the lines of the devs solution to one problem, helped create another. Their solution coupled with the whole, everything must be a grind mentality, causes carries.

I wholeheartedly agree with it coming from the free cookies for everyone! Thought process and while I will say IRL I am a liberal and all that other stuff, this is a video game not IRL (hehe using that same excuse feels so gud) you don't NEED that token, althought I'm all for everyone who participated getting loot, best believe because I acknowledge this is just a game and you don't NEED that piece of loot/token you'll be kicked.....

Sadly though I will be honest and say 9/10 cases people arent kicked because of your next idea, I do the grind too much and it's a lot longer to extend it by arguing with someone who just doesnt care... It is a losing battle with players increasingly getting carried through it all. The little "this was my fastest run ever" compliments help a bit but more often than not don't happen.
At this point there really isn't anything I can do at an individual level to help players improve but hope that it really just is because people are ignorant to their performance, maybe just maybe being constantly reminded about their numbers will let these people know "ok that other ninja in my group or every nin in my group outperforms me, why?" And improve somehow.

[Whiteroom]

snip

Regarding that next part of my idea. It isn't meant to be a definable reason for kicking people. It is simply something that lends to the culture you asked about in your first post. The whole issue is a culture thing within ffxivs community. Is it affected by outside influences, yes, for sure. But the things that make it "our" issue, come from the way the game is designed and played.

Of course, I do view the lack of a parser as a huge enabler of this whole thing as well.

I'm sure there are other influences, like the way DF is cross-server and the anonimity that you gain there. Also, I don't think North Americas "I want it NOW!" Mentality mixes well at all with the extreme grind. But like I said, it's not a fully fleshed out idea yet.

Interesting and relevant reddit thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ly_preventing/

Interesting thread, I would like to see an even bigger sampling, and from different content as well, but thats asking a bit too much of the poster.
I wonder how the responses in this thread might change if they introduced an in game parser for a couple of weeks and people got to see just how varied the dps numbers are, and that its not just a spread of 800-1000 but more like 200-1200 dps.