The issue nobody wants to address

[Jynx]

How? That's always the argument.

It just doesn't happen.

It's a completely unfounded fear.

Despite the fact that it's a very common occurance? I've never experienced it myself but I've talked to enough people about how pushy people can get when throwing parse numbers around without even understanding the context of the numbers themselves.

Like I said throwing numbers at people does nothing, all your saying is. "These numbers mean things do them better!", and the imediate response is "Those numbers give me proof to show them they are bad!" Why would a player who is willing to improve would even need this as evidence the only reasoning behind people wanting parsers is in all reality the free reign to shame people over their numbers. I have no qualms with the usefullness of the tool for people who actually use them to calculate their rotations and all that stuff but the general player isn't going to do that. Not everyone cares to be as bleeding edge as you think they want to be.

You may think that some people are just poor uninfomred souls but I guarnatee you a good majority of them are just facerolling because they know you are never going to see them again in content. The best enforcement of people needing to actually know there job and play the game is responsibillity the duty finder works against this. Being known as the guy who just wont listen to advice on how to be a better player is worse than having your numbers shown for strangers to look at for 10-15 minutes until they never see you again.

[Ryel]

Despite the fact that it's a very common occurance? I've never experienced it myself but I've talked to enough people about how pushy people can get when throwing parse numbers around without even understanding the context of the numbers themselves.

So common that not only have you not experienced it yourself so your evidence isn't even anecdotal, but you're instead relying on third party testimonials?

Whelp I'm convinced.

You may think that some people are just poor uninfomred souls but I guarnatee you a good majority of them are just facerolling because they know you are never going to see them again in content. The best enforcement of people needing to actually know there job and play the game is responsibillity the duty finder works against this. Being known as the guy who just wont listen to advice on how to be a better player is worse than having your numbers shown for strangers to look at for 10-15 minutes until they never see you again.

I don't disagree with this but the point was never about fixing the entire playerbase as I've mentioned before, allowing players to have some form of accountability in the DF on DPS jobs doesnt instantly make everyone a better DPS or force them to care.

However it might mitigate some of what we're seeing and will definitely help those who are interested in seeing their numbers but are unable to.

Like console players.

No offense but if you're trying to provide a point saying how the addition of parsers would breed toxicity, saying the equivalent of "Some guy in my FC said someone in Ex roulette was being mean" isn't going to make your point.

[Malevicton]

So common that not only have you not experienced it yourself so your evidence isn't even anecdotal, but you're instead relying on third party testimonials?

Whelp I'm convinced.

^Pretty much this. It's a common hypothetical, not a common occurrence.

This video's pretty old (and about WoW) but this is what far more commonly happens with parsers (spoiler: nobody cares about people's dps, let alone harasses them): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas

[RickXRolled]

I've noticed multiple problems when I pay attention to under performing players.

1. They press buttons as if they have a 5-10s gcd.
2. They don't know what weaving is.(saw a dragoon use power surge+jump+spineshatter+dragonfiredive back to back without touching a single gcd.
3. Don't even know what their abillities do and how they affect one another(ice mages)
4. Fail to use Dots and maintain them.(probably assume they are not worth using)
5. Unnecessary movements.(positionals and hazard zone avoidance)
6. Failure to move at all.(Positionals and hazard zone avoidance)
7. Abillity to make good judgment.(Using touch of death on a mob with 5% hp that is being focused down.)
8. Netflix.(I wish I was joking)

[Whiteroom]

I've noticed multiple problems when I pay attention to under performing players.

6. Failure to move at all.(Positionals and hazard zone avoidance)

LOL three BLMs in A1 today. 3 people getting hit with Photon Spaser...
Also, what are Alarums...

[Whiteroom]

So common that not only have you not experienced it yourself so your evidence isn't even anecdotal, but you're instead relying on third party testimonials?

Whelp I'm convinced.

And its not like hes new either, hes been around since 2011, and still only heard it from a friend, or a friend of a friend. Sounds like a rampant issue to me.

[Jynx]

And its not like hes new either.

It just means I have never been personally harassed about my DPS, Tanking, or Healing abillities.

But hey I try to party with friends whenever possible anyways to avoid the duty finder in itself. Doesn't mean I've only heard of it from a "Friend of a friend" I've had many company members experience this and I trust their opinions. A full party parse even in it's best scenario does little if anything to help the hillarious situations you run into in the duty finder.

Beyond even my company I hear of it, I'm a social guy just because you don't think it happens doesn't mean it does.

[Whiteroom]

It just means I have never been personally harassed about my DPS, Tanking, or Healing abillities.

But hey I try to party with friends whenever possible anyways to avoid the duty finder in itself. Doesn't mean I've only heard of it from a "Friend of a friend" I've had many company members experience this and I trust their opinions. A full party parse even in it's best scenario does little if anything to help the hillarious situations you run into in the duty finder.

Beyond even my company I hear of it, I'm a social guy just because you don't think it happens doesn't mean it does.

Your ability to put words in mouths here is awesome. Not a single person has denied that there is the odd person who would abuse it. I wonder how many times that has to be repeated, the list of obvious things that need to be repeated is ever growing.

Despite the fact that it's a very common occurance? I've never experienced it myself but I've talked to enough people about how pushy people can get when throwing parse numbers around without even understanding the context of the numbers themselves..

Please re-read your exact words, put in the context of you being around for four years.
Does Very Common fit, in any way, when you put those two pieces of information together?

If it did, you would have run into it many times with even casual use of DF and PF, regardless of if you commonly run with mostly friends.

[Atoli]

So common that not only have you not experienced it yourself so your evidence isn't even anecdotal, but you're instead relying on third party testimonials?
Whelp I'm convinced. No offense but if you're trying to provide a point saying how the addition of parsers would breed toxicity, saying the equivalent of "Some guy in my FC said someone in Ex roulette was being mean" isn't going to make your point.

He already said he talked to many people who experienced it. I don't see how "only he himself but no one else" is a better argument than "many people he has talked to".
So yeah, if it makes you happy: I experienced it myself. AND talked to many many people who experienced it, too. More convincing? Probably not, since you don't want to get convinced in the first place.

But since you wanted to hear an anecdotal story, here is one: I was called out on my dmg very rudely after we wiped in a fight in which I got targeted all the time by AoEs. I'm a BLM, meaning movement equals close to no dmg dealt. it was simply bad luck, the AoEs could have targeted someone else, but they didn't. I tried to explain that and got either ignored (we only care about hard facts and the facts say your dmg was the worst out of all the dps!) or told to just ignore the AoEs and get hit, they'd heal it away.
I did what I was told and actively BECAME A WORSE PLAYER by staying in AoEs I could have moved out of but hey, of course my parser numbers skyrocketed :eyesroll:
Only did the healers NOT heal me, so I ended up dying and not dealing any decent dmg anyway.
In other situations in the same group when I wasn't targeted by the AoEs and my dmg was fine just like that, the tank forgot to grab the adds and I got targeted trying to save the healer and died too.
In the end, I was the one getting berated, insulted and kicked, because the parser only showed the numbers - me dealing less dmg than other dps - not that others ignored the fight's mechanics.

[Ryel]

He already said he talked to many people who experienced it. I don't see how "only he himself but no one else" is a better argument than "many people I've talked to".
So yeah, if it makes you happy: I experienced it myself. AND talked to many many people who experienced it, too. More convincing? Probably not, since you don't want to get convinced in the first place.

Convince me of what? That the addition of a public parser to FFXIV is suddenly going to raise the levels of player toxicity through the roof and will bring an end to our oh so friendly community? The same community that has no issue harassing and kicking healers and tanks when they don't play up to par but expect playing DPS to avoid accountability?

Why are tanks and healers held accountable for their play but DPS aren't?

41 pages into this thread and not a single person has answered that question, it's been asked by multiple people multiple times but instead the counter argument is always "But... toxicity!!!!"

Offhand i can think of a few MMORPGs on the market that either allow, include, or make use of DPS meters through either in-game features or add on support:

Everquest
World of Warcraft
DC universe Online
Star Wars: The old Republic
Lord of the Rings Online

Many of them have been around far longer and it's already been shown that apathy is the largest response to public parsing, not toxicity. Maleviction posted a video talking about this, i suggest you watch it.

But since you wanted to hear an anecdotal story, here is one: I was called out on my dmg very rudely after we wiped in a fight in which I got targeted all the time by AoEs. I'm a BLM, meaning movement equals close to no dmg dealt. it was simply bad luck, the AoEs could have targeted someone else, but they didn't. I tried to explain that and got either ignored (we only care about hard facts and the facts say your dmg was the worst out of all the dps!) or told to just ignore the AoEs and get hit, they'd heal it away.
I did what I was told and actively BECAME A WORSE PLAYER by staying in AoEs I could have moved out of but hey, of course my parser numbers skyrocketed :eyesroll:
Only did the healers NOT heal me, so I ended up dying and not dealing any decent dmg anyway.
In other situations in the same group when I wasn't targeted by the AoEs and my dmg was fine just like that, the tank forgot to grab the adds and I got targeted trying to save the healer and died too.
In the end, I was the one getting berated, insulted and kicked, because the parser only showed the numbers - me dealing less dmg than other dps - not that others ignored the fight's mechanics.

That's unfortunate, did you report them?

I'm sure others can come in and give anecdotal stories about how they were harassed or kicked or treated rudely for any number of reasons. I remember out of the two times i was kicked from a dungeon one was because i didn't do a full pull and clear of the first room in Aurum Vale as PLD back when i was farming relic weapon drops, not only was i not even asked to pull the rest of the mobs but i was cursed out, called names and kicked.

It happens.

Players will harass and berate each other for any number of reasons, simply because they can. When they do however feel free to report them to GM's as that's what they're there for.

Nobody is denying that it will happen on occasion, they are however saying it has been proven to not be as common as many would have you believe, which is what my reply to the earlier comment was making light of.

EDIT: For the sake of full disclosure the other time i was kicked from a dungeon was in Copperbell (Hard) as PLD (also for relic drops) when the healer decided i wasn't pulling as fast as they wanted and grabbed the entirety of the next room while i was fighting something else. I sat there and watched him die, it was hilarious and worth the kick.