Yoshi P's Stance on Pld

[dspguy]

Yoshi's stance on PLD? Tank stance. Always.

[Exodus_Kenpachi]

I'd wager the -vast- majority of the tanks that arent enjoying the current meta are Paladins though - not because of the perceived weakness.

PLD weaknesses as a tank are not "perceived." They are very real and have been discussed at length.

[Synestra]

There needs to be a drawback to togglable mitigation, and losing a GCD is the drawback for PLD/DRK.

You forgot heavy mana costs(Grit)and combo braking, while GCD is imo not really a penalty but more like nuisance.

[Brian_]

PLD and DRK also don't gain access to a slew of high impact skills when swapping stances.

If you looked at WAR skills in a vacuum, they would be incredibly OP. Fell Cleave? IB? Equilibrium? Decimate?

That they're linked to stances and stacks is why they can exist as is. So, you cannot say WAR does not receive meaningful and immediate benefits from their stances.

I used to think that you couldn't remove Oaths from the GCD. Then HW happened and WAR got Deliverance. Now I'm much more open to the idea.

I used to play PLD and switched to WAR for Savage. WAR by far has the best ability to manage incoming and outgoing damage. It's not even close. That's the direct result of WARs having the most instantaneous benefits from their oGCD stance swapping.

[Freyyy]

PLD and DRK also don't gain access to a slew of high impact skills when swapping stances.

If you looked at WAR skills in a vacuum, they would be incredibly OP. Fell Cleave? IB? Equilibrium? Decimate?

That they're linked to stances and stacks is why they can exist as is. So, you cannot say WAR does not receive meaningful and immediate benefits from their stances.

I used to think that you couldn't remove Oaths from the GCD. Then HW happened and WAR got Deliverance. Now I'm much more open to the idea.

I used to play PLD and switched to WAR for Savage. WAR by far has the best ability to manage incoming and outgoing damage. It's not even close. That's the direct result of WARs having the most instantaneous benefits from their oGCD stance swapping.

[Duelle]

WAR by far has the best ability to manage incoming and outgoing damage. It's not even close. That's the direct result of WARs having the most instantaneous benefits from their oGCD stance swapping.

I guess a better way to put it is "a design decision made to not screw over WAR when it switches from MT to off-tank is being used to pump out more damage than is normal for a tank job, forcing the other tanks to try to emulate it and fail because they are not built for it".

[SwordCoheir]

I guess a better way to put it is "a design decision made to not screw over WAR when it switches from MT to off-tank is being used to pump out more damage than is normal for a tank job.

Pretty much. That flexibility gives WAR a significant lead over PLD/DRK. Stat wise on paper, I could guarentee WAR/PLD/DRK could probably output similar damage, after all we share basically the same gear and more or less mitigation capabilities, but...

-WAR not having to wait on a GCD stance let's them throw out one more GCD attack per swap that other tanks can't do.
-WAR not losing combos on stance swaps let's them optimize their DPS/hate rotation and go Offensive/defensive on the fly when needed.
-WAR not having to use resources to swap stances, means they don't need to waste time on regaining resources to maintain their flexibility.

All that is pretty damn significant in the realm of DPS.

[Sapphidia]

All that is pretty damn significant in the realm of DPS.

You forgot possibly the most important one:

- WAR has their highest threat combo as their highest potency DPS combo, so when maximising their threat they're also maximising their DPS.

It's not exactly in the same design boat as the stance swapping issue, but it's key to the problem. SE designed DRK/PLD to have DPS combos as a secondary thing to be thrown in once comfy threat leads were established, whereas Warriors don't really have that distinction. Paladins and Dark Knights sacrifice a LOT of potential damage to stay ahead of the threat curve, to the point where a Paladin at least pretty much -cannot- ever do their maximum DPS rotation in an encounter without a ninja's threat transfer.

The issue is that WAR has damage moves and stance swapping as an integral part of the kit to seemlessly work together. PLD has "doing damage" shoehorned on as a secondary factor that vastly negatively impacts their ability for consistant threat generation.

Warriors can sit in Deliverance for an entire fight alternating their SE/Butchers combos whereas a Paladin who sits in Sword Oath doing Goring/Royal/Royal will lose threat in an instant if they don't have either a substantial threat lead from shield oath halones at the start of a fight or a ninja to prop them up, else they're forced to throw in extra Halones for threat which is a whopping 80 potency loss over a Royal Authority. DRKs have a similar issue as their optimal DPS rotation has no bonus threat on it and their threat combo is less potency and loses them MP for extra DPS via Dark Arts.

When doing DPS on a dummy or when DPSing a target that you dont have threat on, DRK/PLD dps levels are competitive enough. The main issue is that they can't ever reach those levels in a "typical" raid situation.

[SwordCoheir]

- WAR has their highest threat combo as their highest potency DPS combo, so when maximising their threat they're also maximising their DPS.

Oh I didn't forget, when 2.0 had hit WAR and PLD's hate combos actually had the same modifiers, the problem was WAR got utility on top of that so when they used their utilities they slowly started losing threat because they designed the fights where WAR/PLD had to focus on hate full time to keep it. It wasn't a problem for PLD's because they didn't have any variety in their skills and could spam Halone all day long without worrying about it. However, PLD's modifiers are setup for their extremely limited 2.0 skill-set and weren't adjusted to allow us to use our utilities, so basically we're in the same boat as WAR was in 2.0 at least when it comes to hate.

[Starkbeaumont]

PLD weaknesses as a tank are not "perceived." They are very real and have been discussed at length.

It doesn't really have a weakness as a tank per se, just that in the current meta the other two perform better. going by what a tank's job is, PLD does fine.