The issue nobody wants to address

[Whiteroom]

Lmao pointing out someone's flaws or giving criticism is BULLYING now. Wow, feeling pressured means you're getting bullied?

I feel pressure all the time at work, or when I'm representing a region's skill level in a competition.

That does not mean I'm being bullied.

It's that fearmongering coming up again, right?

I wonder if fearmongering would be considered bullying...

[Archaell]

Lmao pointing out someone's flaws or giving criticism is BULLYING now. Wow, feeling pressured means you're getting bullied?

I feel pressure all the time at work, or when I'm representing a region's skill level in a competition.

That does not mean I'm being bullied.

But that's different, people play games to relax and have fun...

I would like to see how much fun would underperforming dps players have if I stopped healing their skin in aoes, or if I would only manage healer's enmity while tanking. Of course there are bad tanks and healers too, but these usually don't last long - because it is "too much pressure" to be responsible for victories and deaths.

[Whiteroom]

But that's different, people play games to relax and have fun...

I would like to see how much fun would underperforming dps players have if I stopped healing their skin in aoes, or if I would only manage healer's enmity while tanking. Of course there are bad tanks and healers too, but these usually don't last long - because it is "too much pressure" to be responsible for victories and deaths.

But thats different... you are harrasing other players! Is what I had told to me when I posed a similar question.

[Gilraen]

But thats different... you are harrasing other players! Is what I had told to me when I posed a similar question.

I refer to that as friendly /backhanding. When I did Keep Hard for the first time I saw the statues turn into mobs so I killed one... and when the boss killed me the healer quietly didn't raise me leaving me to watch the rest of the fight till they wiped. I didn't complain about it and lesson learned, statues are good, we got back up and carried on. The rest of the run was bumpy but that was our only wipe. Mind, noone explained a thing when I said I was new but if someone is being stupid and noone's trying to be helpful there's not much else to do to curb that. I think players should be so lucky to have practical lessons if noone's going to explain anything.

[Atoli]

What's your stance on forcing others to carry you through content?
Players clear content that their performance does not allow. Tanks would let mobs run around without any effort to taunt more than one, everybody would stand in aoes, healers wouldn't be able to heal through it - if they cared to heal others than just the tank - etc etc.

Why not consider it a challenge to yourself to get through that?
I'm also mildly annoyed having to carry people through content (someone mentioned Titan EX on the last page, it's not rare to have 5/8 fall down before the fight is over. Do I particulary enjoy being the only dps left standing? Nah.) but like I said time and time again, parsers don't change that. If you feel someone is too bad at playing you can already kick them from your party. The thing is, unless it's TOO extremely bad, most people don't bother waiting for replacements. They make due with what they have, be it a tank who can't keep hate, dps who stand in each and every AoE or healers with a god complex.
So why not challenge yourself and get better to the point where you can get through the content with others not contributing enough or actively hindering you (trolls)?
Why you should change your playstyle, you ask? Well, why should others change theirs to accomodate you? Don't assume that every bad player wants to get carried through content. Maybe they are fine with only clearing it after outgearing it by a lot. It's your own fault you carry them through when they wouldn't be able to do it by themselves yet.

[Archaell]

Honestly, I am going to admit that I am totally biased. Tanks and healers aren't the minority just because there are more dps classes, nor that they are boring. They are the minority because they are responsible for their performance - and not just theirs unfortunately.

It's getting a little bit on my nerves, when tanks and healers are blamed from all the sides for something that is not their fault. Really, it is almost ridiculous how easy it is to make a mistake made by dps player seem like it is tank's or healer's fault. There are mechanics like soft enrages. If you don't kill things fast enough, tank has to tank more, healer has to heal more. Also healer going out of mana is more often fault of dps rather than the healer. Not to mention when your tank dies, because you wasted your GCD to save one of the aoe blinded crowd - but no matter what, it is always tank's/healer's fault. *sigh*

We also have this "dps" oriented meta right now - that's even funnier. So tanks and healers are now supposed to dps? Oh common, get your bloody dps together, dps scrubs (I don't mean it as evil as it sounds). If the dps players could perform (I don't talk about savage btw, that's different) then the tanks and healers could focus more on their job.

Parsers are something that gives dps responsibility. Something that would give tanks and healers a little bit of breathing space, while increasing their ranks - You suck at dpsing? Try out healing or tanking. Every single role should be held accountable for their own mistakes and performance. It should not be: "Do you suck? Pick a dps class!" It should be: "Improve!"

This is the main reason why I support parsers. It would help the most new healers and tanks.

[Archaell]

...

I am lazy, like really really lazy. And also I do not have the heart to kick somebody for their performance.

How can be "not carrying" an option when you always do your best. Unless you suggest that everybody should slack off - in which case nobody would clear nothing. Nope. That's not an option.

[Atoli]

Every single role should be held accountable for their own mistakes and performance.

This is the first reasonable argument I see in this thread.
Although I still think the problem lies with tanks and healers quietly taking the blame instead of stepping up to say "no, sorry, YOU are the one who sucks and now go and do your job so I can do mine". Because it's not like it's not already visible if dps do bad. Yes, a wipe has a bit more impact, but if it takes three times the amount of time to kill a monster than what it should take, it's pretty obvious that the dmg is lacking.

Unless you suggest that everybody should slack off.

...I suggested the opposite xD
Sorry if that wasn't clear enough. I suggest to get good enough so it doesn't matter how bad other players are and just ignore that others are worse, OR, if you really hate the idea of someone getting a clear on something you think they don't deserve to kick them instead of carrying them through and then go and cry on the forums how you want a tool to rub in how bad they are.

I understand you. But honestly, if you are too lazy to kick anyone (which only takes 2 clicks), how can you go and blame others for being too lazy to do their job right (which, by comparison, takes a greater deal of effort)?

[Colorful]

We also have this "dps" oriented meta right now - that's even funnier. So tanks and healers are now supposed to dps? Oh common, get your bloody dps together, dps scrubs (I don't mean it as evil as it sounds). If the dps players could perform (I don't talk about savage btw, that's different) then the tanks and healers could focus more on their job.

It's always nice when Healers and Tanks try their best in dungeons, meaning DPSing. I mean, you've overgeared the content, why not throw out a few damage abilities instead of sitting there idling while you wait until someone needs healing? I don't heal, but what exactly does doing their job better entail when the enemies put out pathetic amounts of damage, making sure everyone stays at 100% at all times? Seems like a waste of time to me. If you're expecting a DPS to do their best, both Healers and Tanks should too otherwise you're being a little hypocritical (note: I don't expect Healers to DPS, but I love the ones that do).

Did a DREX yesterday where both the Tank and Healer were putting out a lot of DPS, and both DPS were putting out 1100+ DPS. That was a nice really nice run.

[Archaell]

...

I don't actually expect dps players to do their best. I expect them to do well enough.

btw. I have nothing against tanks (ok, maybe a little bit, as I want to dps too ^^) and healers who dps. If the situation allows it, dpsing as tank/healer can be really rewarding. But tanks and healers should not substitute for poor dps, they should provide it as an extra - As you said it leads to nice runs.