The issue nobody wants to address

[Ryel]

fair enough. however players with bad attitudes do use parsers to grief other players. that is the argument that SE is using. not that the parser itself is a bad thing.

That's a common misconception actually, SE's stance has absolutely nothing to do with parsers potentially being used for harassment and everything to do with SE being a software company that doesn't want to condone the use of third party tools due to liability issues.

GE: Recently, there has been noise from players about parsers, mods and third-party applications being used with Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn and about people getting warned, suspended or even banned by GMs for using such applications. There was also mention of a plug-in API for the game. We were wondering what the policy was, your stance on it, and how you were approaching these issues. Some players are a bit worried and don’t want to get banned.

Yoshida: This is a very difficult question to answer. We are first and foremost a software company, and as a software company we cannot really approve of anyone modifying our product in any way. We would prefer it if everyone played within the original design of the software, otherwise we can’t really guarantee the quality of the product itself. Officially, the policy is that any additions or modification to the game are against the rules and privacy policy and when playing our game, everyone has to have gone through the steps to agree to the Terms and Conditions when you sign up.

However, I too am a hardcore PC gamer so I understand that there are a lot of plug-ins and add-ons available to many games. So as a PC gamer, all I can really say is “Please, don’t get caught.” If you are going to use add-ons and plug-ins please be discrete about it. Don’t go around telling your friends you mod the game on chat, or ask a GM if using such an add-on is ok. We can’t really go around and check if add-ons and plug-ins will work with our game and debug it, and check that it doesn’t break anything – its too much. Really what it comes down to is I can’t really say “Yes” to these things, and players have to realize that by using an application that accesses game files that they are the ones that are assuming the risk of viruses and possibly compromising their account.

And as you probably know, Final Fantasy XI had a particularly strict policy on this kind of thing, so there are quite a few players out there who moved from XI to XIV who definitely view any kind of add-on to the game as bad. So please, just be discrete if you will be using tools or add-ons.

Source:http://gamerescape.com/2014/02/12/ps...naoki-yoshida/

This whole "Think of the community!!!!!" argument is nothing but scare tactics, fear mongering and misinformation about a subject that we don't need to talk about in hypotheticals because tools like parsers have been around for as long as MMO's have (well over a decade) and we already know there are little to no issues with allowing players to use them.

EDIT: Poster on the previous page beat me to the same thing.

[Malevicton]

EDIT:[/B] Poster on the previous page beat me to the same thing.

I'm just glad to not be the only person saying it now lol. One day there may even be dozens of us!

[Kosmos992k]

I actually feel that there is almost no point in responding further to this topic. But hey, one last time, just for the heck of it.

• SE may/may not introduce an 'official' parser, when they publish the Addon API.
• Said parser may/may not be more accurate than 3rd party ones due to having access to complete data for DoT damage.
• The API and game client will not give any parser the DoT data for any player except the one who's client is running the parser.
• If/when SE supplies an official parser it will almost certainly be a personal parser, which may, or may not be available for anything other than striking dummies.
• Said 'official' parser will not supply detailed parsed data for anyplayer except yourself, nor will the API facilitate access to complete data for other players.
• There will be no generally available parser data for other players, you won't beable to say to another player, "hey, the official parser shows your DPS is lowest, would you like some pointers?" because that information will not be visible to you.

Why do I think that all of these restrictions and possibly others will apply? Simple, Yoshi and the Dev team have gone to great lengths to prevent any form of naming and shaming, player harassment, bullying, abuse, and anyother negative behavior that falls under the heading of griefing others. Introducing an 'official' parser will not go against this fundamental stand of theirs. This is a separate point referencing their view on player conduct, and not relating to whether or not SE wants to open the game up for add-on tools in general.

Parsers don't make people a-holes, however a-holes can use parsers to abuse, bully or otherwise grief others. The number of players actively doing this will always be small on an absolute level, but will always cause a disproportionately large problem.

Parsers are just tools, how they are used is dependent (much like guns) on the user. Sadly however, there are a great many immature individuals in our player community, people who are not a-holes, but are prone to being provoked and less capable of handling situations in a constructive manner. So it's not only a-holes who will misuse parser data.

Parsers are a valid tool for use in end-game content and static groups allowing teams to maximize their efficiency.

Parsers are not a valid tool for use in general content outside of end game because in any situation where someone uses parser data against another player, there are a limited number of possibilities;

• the player in question is open to advice and wants to learn; this situation is however unlikely because players actively interested in learning and doing better are almost certainly not underperforming to a degree where there is a problem - precisely because they try, they ask and they listen.
• the player in question doesn't want to hear it, people in general don't like criticism, unsolicited advice or having data thrust in their face as proof. These players will either ignore you, react negatively, get upset, rage-quit and/or report you for using a parser and using it to grief them.
• the player in question doesn't give a damn what you and your parser say, they're just happy to play and may be too young, impaired or distracted to listen to or care about what you are saying.
• the player in question is intentionally trolling you and will delight in tweaking and annoying you further, disrupting your game entirely.

Only in the fIrst of these scenarios is there a truly positive outcome, but in actuality, players open minded to change and improvement are already better than average (typically speaking) and are less likely to attract parser scrutiny in the first place.

People in general get defensive when they feel they are being criticised, the can easily feel bullied, or unduly pressured. Some will react angrily in these circumstances, but all will view the situation negatively. It doesn't matter how positive the approach is, criticism is criticism.

The reality of human nature is that over time, more players than expected will mis-use parsers and far more players than parser advocates will acknowledge will be offended, angered or negatively affected by the behavior of those mis-using parsers. The number of players in the general community, that will improve their performance because an "official" parser exists will be eclipsed by the dark cloud of negative experiences. Far from being the promised land of overall improvement and excellent crop yeilds twice a year, the situation will be at best, the situation we have now, and at worst a number driven hell where players are discriminated against and are expected to show their parse to join a group.

Finally, parsers are a trap for some players. We exist in a "moar dps" climate right now, and many DPS players are hyper-focused on their big numbers to the extent of not dodging avoidable damage because it disrupts their positionals. Ever present parser numbers will only serve to enhance this issue by giving those players a number to focus on and worry about.

The present "dont ask dont tell"parser use works because it allows those who want to parse, to parse, and clearly puts mis-use on the list of offenses that can earn discipline. A parser that parses other players, is ever present and ubiquitous will cause far, far more problems than it is worth. As I outlined earlier any official parser will include strict limitations of it's capability and clear guidance about parser abuse.

Thats my opinion on the matter, I've made other points in earlier posts and stand by them all. The best way to improve the general quality of play is to play, talk to others, make friends, coach newbies and less capable players *if* they want it, and avoid criticizing other players. Parsers are not needed to facilitate this, and seve only to dehumanize the coaching and learning process.

:end.

[Brian_]

There is a crucial flaw to the concluding idea. Everything is predicated on the urge to improve. If people don't have a quantifiable way to show them that they need to improve or any more relevant way to encourage improvement, then the entire process you described collapses.

A perfect example is day 1 A1S Faust. There were a lot of players that naively attempted A1S on release only to have their perception of how sufficient their DPS was shattered. Faust was a semi-quantifiable way to gauge how sufficient your raid DPS was. A lot of players either gave up on Savage or adopted the mentality that they needed to improve.

The first step is the foundation. You need to establish a system of positive reinforcement that promotes improvement among even your casual player-base. An example of this is gating desirable stuff behind levels of performance on a more accessible and relevant level than Coil or Savage. Nothing has ever done this past or present.

That's the real way to improve the general level of play. You don't force that responsibility on your player-base. You have to hold their hand and guide them as developers. You have to foster an environment of progression. It's no different from an educational institute and the role of teachers and administrators. Yes, a part of the quality of education does fall to the students and how they interact with each other -- study groups and what not. But, the teachers and administrators need to create the proper environment first.

After you have planted those seeds and given more and more people reason to pursue improvement, then parsers are no longer a taboo thing. They're no longer perceived to be something elitist ass-holes wave in your face to tell you you're bad. They're just a tool that everyone uses to better measure their abilities. They're like test scores or grades. I haven't met a school teacher in my life that says to a student "I'm not going to tell you how well you're doing."

[Archaell]

• SE may/may not introduce an 'official' parser, when they publish the Addon API.
• Said parser may/may not be more accurate than 3rd party ones due to having access to complete data for DoT damage.
• The API and game client will not give any parser the DoT data for any player except the one who's client is running the parser.
• If/when SE supplies an official parser it will almost certainly be a personal parser, which may, or may not be available for anything other than striking dummies.
• Said 'official' parser will not supply detailed parsed data for anyplayer except yourself, nor will the API facilitate access to complete data for other players.
• There will be no generally available parser data for other players, you won't beable to say to another player, "hey, the official parser shows your DPS is lowest, would you like some pointers?" because that information will not be visible to you.

1. Would the addons be usable by console players? They may/may not be. There can be official parser alongside addons.
2. The said parser can be more accurate if SE makes it more accurate. They have all the data, 3rd party programs not.
3. The problem you can fix with SE’s own parser – they have the data.
4. You are pointing out that parser could be insufficient. Then SE should make it work everywhere.
5. That would be start. As I said in other threads. Detailed personal parser and basic performance indicator for other players would be good enough. Simple icon showing who does their part and who not (who is responsible for enrage fail) would be enough for me.
6. That would be a problem with personal only parsers. Easily fixed by full group parser provided by SE.

Why do I think that all of these restrictions and possibly others will apply? Simple, Yoshi and the Dev team have gone to great lengths to prevent any form of naming and shaming, player harassment, bullying, abuse, and anyother negative behavior that falls under the heading of griefing others. Introducing an 'official' parser will not go against this fundamental stand of theirs. This is a separate point referencing their view on player conduct, and not relating to whether or not SE wants to open the game up for add-on tools in general.

Then maybe SE will have to nerf content and stop using enrage timers. With every single new content focused towards dps we need better players, we need parsers. Not to mention that in Heavensward difficulty a little bit increased.

Parsers don't make people a-holes, however a-holes can use parsers to abuse, bully or otherwise grief others. The number of players actively doing this will always be small on an absolute level, but will always cause a disproportionately large problem.

Will a-holes use it? Well yes. The thing with a-holes is that they are able to find other ways to bully the players. They can be reported tho. So maybe SE will have to increase number of GMs? Pay them from our retainer fees, maybe?

Parsers are just tools, how they are used is dependent (much like guns) on the user. Sadly however, there are a great many immature individuals in our player community, people who are not a-holes, but are prone to being provoked and less capable of handling situations in a constructive manner. So it's not only a-holes who will misuse parser data.

Right now players with unofficial parser have advantage over players without them. That’s even worse. Yes parser’s are like guns, guns that portion of community uses to some extent, guns that are used to kick players (without stating the reason of course, so the player does not know it was due to dps). Is it fair that one side has guns and the other one not? Well of course not. People can even lie about the parser data and without your own parser you have no defense. You might not even notice that there is a problem with your dps.

Parsers are a valid tool for use in end-game content and static groups allowing teams to maximize their efficiency.

I agree with this statement.

Parsers are not a valid tool for use in general content outside of end game because in any situation where someone uses parser data against another player, there are a limited number of possibilities;

• the player in question is open to advice and wants to learn; this situation is however unlikely because players actively interested in learning and doing better are almost certainly not underperforming to a degree where there is a problem - precisely because they try, they ask and they listen.
• the player in question doesn't want to hear it, people in general don't like criticism, unsolicited advice or having data thrust in their face as proof. These players will either ignore you, react negatively, get upset, rage-quit and/or report you for using a parser and using it to grief them.
• the player in question doesn't give a damn what you and your parser say, they're just happy to play and may be too young, impaired or distracted to listen to or care about what you are saying.
• the player in question is intentionally trolling you and will delight in tweaking and annoying you further, disrupting your game entirely.

This is nice list of players’ behaviour, but it does not invalidate parsers. Parser isn’t some miraculous tool that would make everyone a nice person. It is just a simple tool to measure performance.

Only in the fIrst of these scenarios is there a truly positive outcome, but in actuality, players open minded to change and improvement are already better than average (typically speaking) and are less likely to attract parser scrutiny in the first place.

Again. Parsers aren’t going to fix social problems, nor are they going to cause them in significant amount.

People in general get defensive when they feel they are being criticised, the can easily feel bullied, or unduly pressured. Some will react angrily in these circumstances, but all will view the situation negatively. It doesn't matter how positive the approach is, criticism is criticism.

People get defensive parser or not. We could also say that seeing the numbers yourself may discourage you from reacting angrily. If the player does not pull their weight they do deserve to feel under pressure. To feel bullied? That’s their choice. Unless it is explicitly harassment, they are the only ones who can fix that. Btw. Pressure is one of the motivators usable for improvement.

The reality of human nature is that over time, more players than expected will mis-use parsers and far more players than parser advocates will acknowledge will be offended, angered or negatively affected by the behavior of those mis-using parsers. The number of players in the general community, that will improve their performance because an "official" parser exists will be eclipsed by the dark cloud of negative experiences. Far from being the promised land of overall improvement and excellent crop yeilds twice a year, the situation will be at best, the situation we have now, and at worst a number driven hell where players are discriminated against and are expected to show their parse to join a group.

Okay, pro-parser crowd has to oversell the idea, coz they are the ones at disadvantage right now – but anti-parser crowd is kinda pushing them to overselling, so the problem is caused by both sides.
The truth is, we do not know if official parser would result in more negatives than positives. But change is good. Who knows maybe parser-advocates will realise their mistake and then we will remove parsers again. Removing parsers should be easy, so I say give it a shot.
Btw. The situation can get as much worse as it can get better.

Finally, parsers are a trap for some players. We exist in a "moar dps" climate right now, and many DPS players are hyper-focused on their big numbers to the extent of not dodging avoidable damage because it disrupts their positionals. Ever present parser numbers will only serve to enhance this issue by giving those players a number to focus on and worry about.

You may be correct on this one, but the issue is not going to get much worse. Guess what happens when the player dies? Brutal dps / number loss. Will they have to work a little bit more? Oh yes, finally they will have reason to stop watching Netflix.

The present "dont ask dont tell"parser use works because it allows those who want to parse, to parse, and clearly puts mis-use on the list of offenses that can earn discipline. A parser that parses other players, is ever present and ubiquitous will cause far, far more problems than it is worth. As I outlined earlier any official parser will include strict limitations of it's capability and clear guidance about parser abuse.

It works, but it has issues. The data ain’t as accurate as it could be and parser data used for good of the community are treated like mis-use and harassment.
It may cause far, far more problems, it may not. That’s your assumption and it isn’t too far from “the golden age” of parsing.

Thats my opinion on the matter, I've made other points in earlier posts and stand by them all. The best way to improve the general quality of play is to play, talk to others, make friends, coach newbies and less capable players *if* they want it, and avoid criticizing other players. Parsers are not needed to facilitate this, and seve only to dehumanize the coaching and learning process.
:end.

And here I have to heavily disagree with you. If somebody does not want to improve they deserve punishment. Not because we are evil, but because work neglected by one has to be done by somebody else – which is part of the problem that you are completely ignoring.
Right now there are many players getting willingly / unwillingly carried trough content. Here is assumption of my own: They are more numerous than people who would use parsers for evil deeds.
Everybody has to do their part. Healers have to heal. Tanks have to tank. Dps have to… dps. Right know tanks and healers are at brutal disadvantage. Healer that does not perform leads to wipes, tank that does not perform leads to wipes, dps that does not perform… sometimes leads to wipes, which they readily blame on their tanks and healers. Parsers are step forward towards environment fair for all the roles.

[Whiteroom]

I'm just glad to not be the only person saying it now lol. One day there may even be dozens of us!

It would be a good thing in a sig probably, as it is a fairly common misconception.

[Kosmos992k]

This will be my only answer, I was not going to reply in this topic again, but I thought these three things most of all stood out as wanting a response.

1. Would the addons be usable by console players? They may/may not be. There can be official parser alongside addons.

As I previously posted in another reply, I think that the 'official' SE parser will be available on all platforms with the possible exception of the PS3.I believe that an official Parser function from SE would be put into the game client. I would not be surprised to see it omitted from the PS3 client as the first clear example of fading support for the PS3 platform. PS4 is more than capable of running the first party add-ons supplied in the client by SE, it would be much more difficult to allow 3rd party tools, unless they are running inside a run-time environment within the game client. If they are stand alone applications they would be gated by the Sony application verification and publication process which I believe would be one gate too many.

Then maybe SE will have to nerf content and stop using enrage timers. With every single new content focused towards dps we need better players, we need parsers. Not to mention that in Heavensward difficulty a little bit increased.

I don't agree that the absence of an official parser in any way requires HW content to be nerfed. As far as I know, from reading here and talking to many in-game, the spike in difficulty in the general HW content is on par with the ramp up we saw in the original ARR going from the dungeons prior to Haukke Manor to the more difficult dungeons (at the time in level appropriate ARR gear) like Cutters, Brayflox, Stone Vigil, Arum Vale or for that matter the original AK. Parsers would not have helped terribly much then, with the possible exception of the DPS check with the Demon Wall, although that was doable with healers applying damage as well. HW content scales difficulty up, but outside of the Alexander Savage, I'm not aware of anyone saying that the new content is simply to hard because of a lack of DPS - unless of course said DPS is running in ilvl 100 gear in level 56+ content...That is an issue that parsers can never address.

And here I have to heavily disagree with you. If somebody does not want to improve they deserve punishment. Not because we are evil, but because work neglected by one has to be done by somebody else – which is part of the problem that you are completely ignoring.

Finally, I take great exception to this statement by you; "If somebody does not want to improve they deserve punishment. ".

That attitude is, IMHO, quite callous. I'm not suggesting for a moment that players have a right to expect to be carried rather than improve. Nor am I suggesting for a moment that players who are obviously sub-par but don't care enough to improve should be specifically catered to with content nerfs. There are clearly certain levels of performance that the Dev team expect player to achieve, or else they will be unable to complete the content. However, players in that situation either have to be satisfied with the content that they can handle without further improvement (which should be "punishment" enough in itself), or they have to find some desire to improve. However, I disagree completely with the idea that anyone deserves punishment simply because they are not good at a game and are OK with that.

[LaylaTsarra]

If somebody does not want to improve they deserve punishment.

Pretty much say's it all. Self appointed purveyors of right and wrong and who deserves to be punished and by their standards. Get over yourself.

[Archaell]

This will be my only answer, I was not going to reply in this topic again, but I thought these three things most of all stood out as wanting a response.

I'm not aware of anyone saying that the new content is simply to hard because of a lack of DPS.

I have wiped too many times doing Bismark story mode due to dps check... so here I am saying it is hard when you don't know which dps is dragging the rest of the group down - not to mention that healers usually try to dps too.

Finally, I take great exception to this statement by you; "If somebody does not want to improve they deserve punishment. ".

Of course when I say punished, I mean excluded from the content till they can do their part. That's my main point. Being bad at the game and being ok with it isn't the issue - being bad at the game and being okay with others covering your lack of sklil... that deserves punishment.

If players would do only things where they are able to perform that would be bliss... but players are not satisfied and do content beyond their skill level. They just repeat the content enough times till they get good enough groups to carry them - or till they are overgeared enough to clear it.

[Archaell]

Pretty much say's it all. Self appointed purveyors of right and wrong and who deserves to be punished and by their standards. Get over yourself.

So would you say that when somebody does 90% of work and the other person only 10% while getting the same reward it is totally right and justified?