The issue nobody wants to address

[Critical-Limit]

But that's different, people play games to relax and have fun...

I would like to see how much fun would underperforming dps players have if I stopped healing their skin in aoes, or if I would only manage healer's enmity while tanking. Of course there are bad tanks and healers too, but these usually don't last long - because it is "too much pressure" to be responsible for victories and deaths.

You're assuming I don't have fun at work or at competitions...

[Kosmos992k]

What's your stance on forcing others to carry you through content?

That's got nothing to do with the use of parsers, as for forcing others to do anything, I'd have thought you would have figured out by now where I stand on forcing anyoneto do anything, I clearly am against it. Before you have a littl aha moment, a player who in a group is unable to complete the content on their own is forcing no one to do anything, that is one of the things vote kicking is for.

That's imo also kind of bulling and exploitation of others - and that's also something which does exist right now (in comparison to theoretical parsers).

ROTFLMAO! So, you're telling me that if some dps player has such deplorable damage output rather than votekicking them and replacing them with a readily available DPS player, you'llcower before there poor skill level and feel bullied into carrying them through content? Don't be ridicuolous. Your paper thin arguement for general parser use is bad enough, but attempting to turn things around to play the victim card just takes things to a whole new level. Instead of coming up with ridiculous assertions such as this, why don't you address the points I made, if you can.

Players clear content that their performance does not allow. Imagine that better players would scale their performance to this level. Tanks would let mobs run around without any effort to taunt more than one, everybody would stand in aoes, healers wouldn't be able to heal through it - if they cared to heal others than just the tank - etc etc. Progression scaled down to the bottom would be really interesting to see.

Go back and read what I wrote about the possible responses by those confronted with your silver bullet parser data. You haven't addressed that at all, instead you ignore it and imagine that no one could possibly doubt your parser analysis. Your lack of understanding of people not withstanding, your inability or unwillingness to adrress the logical points made simply re-emphasizes what I've prevously posted about some pro-parser posters ignoring any possible downside to them.

Lmao pointing out someone's flaws or giving criticism is BULLYING now. Wow, feeling pressured means you're getting bullied?

I feel pressure all the time at work, or when I'm representing a region's skill level in a competition.

That does not mean I'm being bullied.

You should do some simple research on peer pressure and bullying.

But that aside, and I am a little tired of repeating the same thing over and over again. Why are you talking of critisism to me? What part of the numbers being avalible for all to see means one party is critisizing another. Actually that you even lead in with this means you didn't read or at the very least misunderstood the post.

What part of SE doesn't want parsers used to criticize, critique orpressure other players in their game did you not understand? So any in-game parser they provide will almost certainly NOT provide invidually identifiable parsed damage, it will most likely be party based. Since you want to say I did not read or understand one ormore posts, may I ask precisely why you completely ignore the very many instance that demonstrate the obvious down sides to general parser use.

Numbers being readily avalible to the party is not critisizing the party. They are what they are, people don't need you to point out if their numbers are lower if they are right there for them to see. So the whole critisizing (at least as far as you were responding to my post) thing is out the window.

What is your basis for imagining that there will ever be general availability of parser data for all players? The many instances where players have been disciplined over parser misuse should be adequate evidence that this will not happen. Or do you intend to ignore that as well?

Parsers aren't what turn people into a-holes, they already are a-holes, a parser is a number they can put in their rants. Also, SE adding a parser doesn't mean in any way they are condoning people abusing others with it. You can still report people you realise. Sorry if I seem curt, but every argument against parsers seems to get regurgitated by a new person every couple of pages.

You don't seem curt, you seem to be willfully ignoring any and all arguments against general parser use. I agree that parsers don't make people a-holes. However a-holes make parsers tools of abuse, and there are more a-holes around than you think. Internet anonymity emboldens many more people not normally like that to act like idiots without fear of the consequence. There is a significant downside to parsers which is why private use of them is by far less problematic than general use. I prevously recognized the potential for positive use in end-game teams to hit required performance in end game content. Outside of that they are neutral at best. Untill you actually address the counter arguments, you sound like a very one dimensional person, unable to open your mind to other possibilities.

[Archaell]

...

Let's start with a simple question. Why are you so offensive? The pro-parsers should be toxic, not anti-parsers.

I consider myself to be somewhere in the middle, as I don't need exact number, I just want to know if the player is pulling its weight. Let's say 70% of their possible output in regard to gear and job.

That's got nothing to do with the use of parsers

It does. I can't tell the difference between two mediocre players and one really good player carrying somebody underperforming. Parser would tell me who should be my priority on the healing list. It's better for the group if the better performing player stays alive. Also I would not know who should I kick without the parser... and you can complety content while being carried.

Btw. if doing poor dps is good, what about poor healers and tanks with poor enmity management? With them you can't clear content. Are you going to kick them? They have same performance as the dps. Why should you kick them? That's not fair.

I am not saying that parsers are flawless, I agree that they would lead to toxic behaviour, it might create stress for few players, but it is still an improvement!

[Welsper59]

You know, I wasn't going to respond to this as I considered it foolish and that you were most likely trolling, but you took the time to write it out, so I will respond.

At no point did I, or anyone allude to parsers being some magical cure all (Hint: there is no full party esuna for all excuses for sub par play, not having an absolute solution for something doesn't mean you don't try to improve it...)for everything wrong with the game. That you think anyone is saying it is even close to an absolute is a little comical.
You suggest improvements that you think will make the game better, and I believe that this will. For reasons that have been stated time and time again, in countless threads, so no point of repeating them in this post.

It's also funny that you seem to think that I or anyone would think they would react the same to every scenario in game, while you yourself have the grand wisdom to see that each situation is different, and will be handled on and individual basis, based off any number of factors.

That you seem to think that bads gonna be bad is a contradiction to you asserting that people react differently at different times even. Of course ther will be those who will always be bad. But not all players who are bad will remain bad is what you left out. Those who think that they are going on fine or even great, when they are actually face with the numbers that show them if they are right or wrong, are likely to react to those numbers. Those DRGs that think keeping their buffs up don't really have that much of an effect for example, or those BRDs who don't keep up dots or buffs, not to mention those dps who think wearing fending acc doesn't change your output much, or even that person who was advocating SCH not using cleric stance to apply dots in the other thread, would be able to see that it is actually a signifigant difference. Now while there would be some who don't change at all, there will be a lot who will.

As has been stated a million times, its not about making all players world first level raiders, it's about giving the population a tool they can use to improve their own game, as well as their teams.

P.S. whats with the off hand fear mongering about getting reported for kicking? the statement that players who are not playstyles not matching the rest of the group is an acceptable reason to kick, is generally accepted enough that I feel no need to link it. I have kicked very few people, but never once has there been a fear of reprecussions from a GM. I honestly can't see anyone but an extreme worrywort even taking this into consideration. I mean, you would see at least an odd post from people contending the GM action if it was remotely common, and I've seen none as of yet. Not to say it can't happen, but it has to be so rare as to not matter.

I'm pointing out that it's a pointless defense/argument to begin with. I also never said anything about "everything wrong with the game", just with the alleviation of bad players, which is literally what the for-parsers crowd that uses this argument is saying parsers do. Maybe I'm mistaken on that, and people are literally only looking to use it to witch hunt when applicable. It does practically nothing to better someone that doesn't already have the urge to be better, since as I said, they'd already be at a decent if not better stance because of their own use of existing parsers or research into how-to-play. The information and means to acquire it already exist. As such, it doesn't even properly support the for-parsers crowd when you actually look at it objectively. This is why I asked, even if we had parsers officially and encountered a bad DPS, what are you gonna do about it? I'm going to assume, as I said earlier, nothing.

Truth be told, I didn't overlook those handful exceptions. There are going to be the oddball rare ones, but they're not going to be as common as you think. You're overlooking HOW people come to that conclusion that they need to improve. A complete newbie that doesn't have the drive to be better, by default, is not going to realize they've hit a personal wall until they can't do certain content. Do you think they'll actually take the time after some random d-bag calls them out on it in a typical MMORPG community manner? Probably not. Ooh boy, the likelihood of THAT type of person saying something, as opposed to the nicer but silent majority, is quite high. You know what the most common excuse that people that do ignorantly bad DPS is? "I'm not geared enough". Nothing to do with rotations or anything that can be solved faster than gear. They won't know what good is for their ilvl because all they ever hear about, if anything, is a generic "you should be doing X DPS" where the statement is about someone attempting endgame raids. Even if they had a parser, they still won't know what is good for their situation. If someone has obtained all the tome gear and STILL hasn't figured out there's something wrong, chances are they just don't give a damn to bother to learn. As uncommon as you might think that is, believe me... it's common. I know at least 4 people IRL that played this game that are like that, and I'd wager you know folks that are or would be like that too. Those are the bads that are gonna be bad. No exceptions to it, unless they've had some sort of epiphany about their life or something lol. I'd say that's not going to happen to the average Joe playing. What I'm trying to say is that the sort of person you think would benefit, already does or already would with how it is now. Their plight would be no different to what gets them to be better.

As I said, which goes along with what you added, focus on those few that want to self improve. Don't draw in some BS argument about some saint becoming better because someone told them they're not doing high enough DPS in some faceroll content in-progress, which is exactly where this would happen. Relevant content, you won't find such a person there unless your group is a fail to begin with.

Also that getting kicked comment was just in reference to someone saying something along the lines of "sorry, you're too low on DPS for this" in a random faceroll DF group, like a 4-man entry dungeon that someone is wanting to go a few minutes faster, which would be an abuse of the kick system just like how it would be now. Nothing to do with the threat of being tattled on because of an actually relevant reason. Besides that, GMs rarely take those sort of reports seriously anyway, unless actual threats were issued.

[Kosmos992k]

Let's start with a simple question. Why are you so offensive? The pro-parsers should be toxic, not anti-parsers.

How am I so offensive? Is it offensive to ask you to answer the points made, or explain why you simply ignore them? I have noticed a trend on this forum recently where people ignore opposing points, and get offended by opposing points of view, is your position so weak that it cannot stand a critical approach? Perhaps you simply can't deal with mild sarcasm? For someone who argues their position so strongly, you seem to be quite fragile under criticism. Oh, wait, lets imagine we're ingame and your dps is lacking. IF this how you react to criticism there, how would you feel being faced down by someone critical of your skill in-game?

I don't actually expect dps players to do their best. I expect them to do well enough.

btw. I have nothing against tanks (ok, maybe a little bit, as I want to dps too ^^) and healers who dps. If the situation allows it, dpsing as tank/healer can be really rewarding. But tanks and healers should not substitute for poor dps, they should provide it as an extra - As you said it leads to nice runs.

Something I can completely agree with.

[Atoli]

I can't tell the difference between two mediocre players and one really good player carrying somebody underperforming.

Honestly, being able to tell that something is wrong with how someone plays without a spreadsheet telling you every little detail, is what I consider the bare minimum to teach and preach to other players about how they are supposed to play their class.
Just a general rule of thumb, not about you personally. And teaching others is the thing this thread is in some twisted way trying to promote, isn't it? A teacher should be competent himself. Seeing basic flaws in a rotation is part of that.

How am I so offensive?

Even I, who pretty much agrees with you mostly, think that your tone is unnecessarily provocative with harsh sarcasm and needless assumptions about others. Archaell is right when he says that it's kind of weird how we are concerned that official parsers will make the community more toxic but then don't act different from what we are trying to prevent

[Kosmos992k]

Even I, who pretty much agrees with you mostly, think that your tone is unnecessarily provocative with harsh sarcasm and needless assumptions about others. Archaell is right when he says that it's kind of weird how we are concerned that official parsers will make the community more toxic but then don't act different from what we are trying to prevent

I'm trying to get someone to actually answer the points made instead of repeating the same point that they've made before - which have been answered by you, me and others several times over.

I was specifically sarcastic at the ridicoulous attempt to claiming to be bullied into a firce carry by a player with poor skill. It's an utterly ludicrous claim to make, not least because of the existence of vote-kicking.

However, be that as it may, I also get very tired of posters who immediately draw the victim card when they have no counter argument. It's easy to distract from the discussion by crying foul because of a claimed offense. I'm honestly shocked by how fragile people here are in the face of what is, in all honesty, mild sarcasm. Either way, continuing to discuss the use of sarcasm in a discussion/debate simply derails the original discussion.

So, without further sarcasm, I'll move on.

[ChazNatlo]

Let's start with a simple question. Why are you so offensive? The pro-parsers should be toxic, not anti-parsers.

Barely paying attention to the conversation, there is a bunch of stuff I can barely pay attention to and I don't really care about parsers one way or the other. But this line is blatantly false. You can have toxic people on both sides of the argument. Don't fool yourself into thinking that the "correct side" has only morally upstanding people and that the "incorrect" side is vile.

[Colorful]

I don't actually expect dps players to do their best. I expect them to do well enough.

btw. I have nothing against tanks (ok, maybe a little bit, as I want to dps too ^^) and healers who dps. If the situation allows it, dpsing as tank/healer can be really rewarding. But tanks and healers should not substitute for poor dps, they should provide it as an extra - As you said it leads to nice runs.

My bad, a DPS doesn't really have an excuse to be doing sub 800 DPS in a dungeon, let alone sub 600 in (almost) full i200. I do hold the belief that in a perfect world, both overgeared tanks and healers should be DPSing when doing content far below their gear level, but I also hold the belief that DPS should be trying as hard as possible. I suppose that's what the commendation system is for, I wish I could give out more than one at times.

[CosmicKirby]

Don't fool yourself into thinking that the "correct side" has only morally upstanding people and that the "incorrect" side is vile.

This is the internet, that's bound to happen. Take a look at any twitter argument or political oriented facebook page's comments.

In my experience, pointing this out to people doesn't help. People demonize the fence-sitters and skeptics just as much as the other side.

"If you're not with us, you're against us" is a line the people actually use to win over crowds.