The issue nobody wants to address

[Critical-Limit]

Stuff

Do you understand the concept of being carried? Its when you ARE performing bad enough to not complete the dungeon especially when everyone else is performing the same level.

If you die in titan because you cant dodge but because I can dish out numbers high enough to carry 1-3 dead dps. They didnt do anything to contribute to the win.

So by your standards if someone afk's at the beginning of aurum vale. And the other 3 complete the dungeon without kicking, the afk guy didnt cause a fail, so he deserves the win?

[Malevicton]

I just don't understand how people can be so ideologically opposed to basic division.

[Whiteroom]

Well the question is, even if we had official parsers... what are you gonna do about someone playing poorly? Put up pretty words as you forcibly kick them from a party that could still have facerolled almost any given content with? You'd probably get reported for that, and honestly... that's rightfully so for that situation. Maybe offer some assistance and expect them to suddenly be better in a matter of seconds/minutes? Believe that you helped that one person, then you suddenly come upon more that you feel needs to be helped, and actually think you'll have the patience to deal with that time and time again? Or, in that situation, would you just become complacent and be back to square one, as though nothing had changed?

I'm not against parsers and would love to see them be official, but this fairy tale belief that they'll suddenly save the whole game from the existence of a bad player is ridiculous and needs to die off lol. Parsers don't even affect bad tanks or healers in this game much, and yet there are A LOT of them around. So you hold a bad DPS accountable... big deal. What does that do? It merely gives you a tool to look down on someone and tell them they need to improve. What does that honestly give you? A pointless witch hunt that does absolutely nothing from the perspective that it spares others of bad players. Chances are, if anyone actually pays attention to that in content that it doesn't matter, you'd actively be looking for someone to "burn at the stake".

Throw that argument and fairy tale defense away and stick to the actual benefit of players that WANT to find self betterment. They're the ones that need the parsers, even though they are likely also the ones who already do use them, or at the very least already are decent at the game because they follow guides/advice. For the long-term bads you encounter now, they will always be bad, and you'll complain and do nothing about it

You know, I wasn't going to respond to this as I considered it foolish and that you were most likely trolling, but you took the time to write it out, so I will respond.

At no point did I, or anyone allude to parsers being some magical cure all (Hint: there is no full party esuna for all excuses for sub par play, not having an absolute solution for something doesn't mean you don't try to improve it...)for everything wrong with the game. That you think anyone is saying it is even close to an absolute is a little comical.
You suggest improvements that you think will make the game better, and I believe that this will. For reasons that have been stated time and time again, in countless threads, so no point of repeating them in this post.

It's also funny that you seem to think that I or anyone would think they would react the same to every scenario in game, while you yourself have the grand wisdom to see that each situation is different, and will be handled on and individual basis, based off any number of factors.

That you seem to think that bads gonna be bad is a contradiction to you asserting that people react differently at different times even. Of course ther will be those who will always be bad. But not all players who are bad will remain bad is what you left out. Those who think that they are going on fine or even great, when they are actually face with the numbers that show them if they are right or wrong, are likely to react to those numbers. Those DRGs that think keeping their buffs up don't really have that much of an effect for example, or those BRDs who don't keep up dots or buffs, not to mention those dps who think wearing fending acc doesn't change your output much, or even that person who was advocating SCH not using cleric stance to apply dots in the other thread, would be able to see that it is actually a signifigant difference. Now while there would be some who don't change at all, there will be a lot who will.

As has been stated a million times, its not about making all players world first level raiders, it's about giving the population a tool they can use to improve their own game, as well as their teams.

P.S. whats with the off hand fear mongering about getting reported for kicking? the statement that players who are not playstyles not matching the rest of the group is an acceptable reason to kick, is generally accepted enough that I feel no need to link it. I have kicked very few people, but never once has there been a fear of reprecussions from a GM. I honestly can't see anyone but an extreme worrywort even taking this into consideration. I mean, you would see at least an odd post from people contending the GM action if it was remotely common, and I've seen none as of yet. Not to say it can't happen, but it has to be so rare as to not matter.

[Archaell]

Most of the issues when it comes to parsers are related to Duty Finder.

Would parsers improve the overall performance of the playerbase? Yes. The question is by how much.

Would parsers make the community more toxic? Yes. The question is by how much.

If we want to see parsers officially supported, we have to increase queue times, because DF would then need options like "hardcore, casual, newbie" etc. The more cathegories we add, the longer the queues. Of course with this we would also need an option to kick somebody for underperfoming, as then they would have an option to choose DF based on their skill.

[Kosmos992k]

Those who think that they are going on fine or even great, when they are actually face with the numbers that show them if they are right or wrong, are likely to react to those numbers.

I think you need to learn more about human nature. Those who will respond favorably in these situations will do so without the use of numbers from a parser. They are in the minority, and are already trying to do better, which is why they will overcome their pride and listen. Far more people will be mildly offended because you've used a parser to criticize them, people do NOT like criticism, criticism makes people defensive, and they will typically ingore or spurn advice because their defensiveness and pride wont let them listen. Some will be more offended than others and some view offence as a good defence, and so will respond negatively. Another sizeable group will ignoreyou because they don't care, are too young to care, or are happy with the way they are, and trying to tell them otherwise will be perceived as bullying. This does not even cover players trolling the game.

In the end though, whether you realize this or not, you are in effect trying to impose your expectations on others and using a data mining tool to do so. A significant proportion of the people you'll meet will feel pressured by that; another word for that is bullied. In general people really do not like to feel that way.

As has been stated a million times, its not about making all players world first level raiders, it's about giving the population a tool they can use to improve their own game, as well as their teams.

I believe it has been shown, that parsers are inevitably used (by a minority of players) in ways that are far from constructive. This is unhelpful to the community, within a private, team envuronment suchas a static, such a tool may have a place, but in the general community, parsers are effectively pit player against player; do we really need to facilitate data based ganking of players?

[Archaell]

...

What's your stance on forcing others to carry you through content?

That's imo also kind of bulling and exploitation of others - and that's also something which does exist right now (in comparison to theoretical parsers).

Players clear content that their performance does not allow. Imagine that better players would scale their performance to this level. Tanks would let mobs run around without any effort to taunt more than one, everybody would stand in aoes, healers wouldn't be able to heal through it - if they cared to heal others than just the tank - etc etc. Progression scaled down to the bottom would be really interesting to see.

[Whiteroom]

I think you need to learn more about human nature. Those who will respond favorably in these situations will do so without the use of numbers from a parser. They are in the minority, and are already trying to do better, which is why they will overcome their pride and listen. Far more people will be mildly offended because you've used a parser to criticize them, eople do NOT like criticism, criticism makes people defensive, and they will typically ingore or spurn advice because their defensiveness and pride wont let them listen. Some will be more offended than others and some view offence as a good defence, and so will respond negatively. Another sizeable group will ignoreyou because they don't care, are too young to care, or are happy with the way they are, and trying to tell them otherwise will be perceived as bullying. This does not even cover players trolling the game.

In the end though, whether you realize this or not, you are in effect trying to impose your expectations on others and using a data mining tool to do so. A significant proportion of the people you'll meet will feel pressured by that; another word for that is bullied. In general people really do not like to feel that way.


I believe it has been shown, that parsers are inevitably used (by a minority of players) in ways that are far from constructive. This is unhelpful to the community, within a private, team envuronment suchas a static, such a tool may have a place, but in the general community, parsers are effectively pit player against player; do we really need to facilitate data based ganking of players?

Which is funny, because I feel the need too reflect your initial comment back at you.

But that aside, and I am a little tired of repeating the same thing over and over again. Why are you talking of critisism to me? What part of the numbers being avalible for all to see means one party is critisizing another. Actually that you even lead in with this means you didn't read or at the very least misunderstood the post.

Numbers being readily avalible to the party is not critisizing the party. They are what they are, people don't need you to point out if their numbers are lower if they are right there for them to see. So the whole critisizing (at least as far as you were responding to my post) thing is out the window.

For the millionth response to players abusing parsers, of course some players will, for everything added in game there will be some who abuse it. Hell, the other day I was watching people using emotes to make groping and sexually sugestive actions to people, something I consider worse by far than pointing out that someone is perfoming sub par, yet there are huge debates on the forums about removing emotes.
Parsers aren't what turn people into a-holes, they already are a-holes, a parser is a number they can put in their rants. Also, SE adding a parser doesn't mean in any way they are condoning people abusing others with it. You can still report people you realise. Sorry if I seem curt, but every argument against parsers seems to get regurgitated by a new person every couple of pages.

[Frederick22]

I think we will need another thread of this xD

[Whiteroom]

I think we will need another thread of this xD

Ikr, but tbh, you could stroll into any thread and post "parser /10char", and it would become this.

[Critical-Limit]

A significant proportion of the people you'll meet will feel pressured by that; another word for that is bullied.

Lmao pointing out someone's flaws or giving criticism is BULLYING now. Wow, feeling pressured means you're getting bullied?

I feel pressure all the time at work, or when I'm representing a region's skill level in a competition.

That does not mean I'm being bullied.