The issue nobody wants to address

[Kosmos992k]

Those who think that they are going on fine or even great, when they are actually face with the numbers that show them if they are right or wrong, are likely to react to those numbers.

I think you need to learn more about human nature. Those who will respond favorably in these situations will do so without the use of numbers from a parser. They are in the minority, and are already trying to do better, which is why they will overcome their pride and listen. Far more people will be mildly offended because you've used a parser to criticize them, people do NOT like criticism, criticism makes people defensive, and they will typically ingore or spurn advice because their defensiveness and pride wont let them listen. Some will be more offended than others and some view offence as a good defence, and so will respond negatively. Another sizeable group will ignoreyou because they don't care, are too young to care, or are happy with the way they are, and trying to tell them otherwise will be perceived as bullying. This does not even cover players trolling the game.

In the end though, whether you realize this or not, you are in effect trying to impose your expectations on others and using a data mining tool to do so. A significant proportion of the people you'll meet will feel pressured by that; another word for that is bullied. In general people really do not like to feel that way.

As has been stated a million times, its not about making all players world first level raiders, it's about giving the population a tool they can use to improve their own game, as well as their teams.

I believe it has been shown, that parsers are inevitably used (by a minority of players) in ways that are far from constructive. This is unhelpful to the community, within a private, team envuronment suchas a static, such a tool may have a place, but in the general community, parsers are effectively pit player against player; do we really need to facilitate data based ganking of players?

[Archaell]

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What's your stance on forcing others to carry you through content?

That's imo also kind of bulling and exploitation of others - and that's also something which does exist right now (in comparison to theoretical parsers).

Players clear content that their performance does not allow. Imagine that better players would scale their performance to this level. Tanks would let mobs run around without any effort to taunt more than one, everybody would stand in aoes, healers wouldn't be able to heal through it - if they cared to heal others than just the tank - etc etc. Progression scaled down to the bottom would be really interesting to see.

[Atoli]

What's your stance on forcing others to carry you through content?
Players clear content that their performance does not allow. Tanks would let mobs run around without any effort to taunt more than one, everybody would stand in aoes, healers wouldn't be able to heal through it - if they cared to heal others than just the tank - etc etc.

Why not consider it a challenge to yourself to get through that?
I'm also mildly annoyed having to carry people through content (someone mentioned Titan EX on the last page, it's not rare to have 5/8 fall down before the fight is over. Do I particulary enjoy being the only dps left standing? Nah.) but like I said time and time again, parsers don't change that. If you feel someone is too bad at playing you can already kick them from your party. The thing is, unless it's TOO extremely bad, most people don't bother waiting for replacements. They make due with what they have, be it a tank who can't keep hate, dps who stand in each and every AoE or healers with a god complex.
So why not challenge yourself and get better to the point where you can get through the content with others not contributing enough or actively hindering you (trolls)?
Why you should change your playstyle, you ask? Well, why should others change theirs to accomodate you? Don't assume that every bad player wants to get carried through content. Maybe they are fine with only clearing it after outgearing it by a lot. It's your own fault you carry them through when they wouldn't be able to do it by themselves yet.

[Archaell]

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I am lazy, like really really lazy. And also I do not have the heart to kick somebody for their performance.

How can be "not carrying" an option when you always do your best. Unless you suggest that everybody should slack off - in which case nobody would clear nothing. Nope. That's not an option.

[Kosmos992k]

What's your stance on forcing others to carry you through content?

That's got nothing to do with the use of parsers, as for forcing others to do anything, I'd have thought you would have figured out by now where I stand on forcing anyoneto do anything, I clearly am against it. Before you have a littl aha moment, a player who in a group is unable to complete the content on their own is forcing no one to do anything, that is one of the things vote kicking is for.

That's imo also kind of bulling and exploitation of others - and that's also something which does exist right now (in comparison to theoretical parsers).

ROTFLMAO! So, you're telling me that if some dps player has such deplorable damage output rather than votekicking them and replacing them with a readily available DPS player, you'llcower before there poor skill level and feel bullied into carrying them through content? Don't be ridicuolous. Your paper thin arguement for general parser use is bad enough, but attempting to turn things around to play the victim card just takes things to a whole new level. Instead of coming up with ridiculous assertions such as this, why don't you address the points I made, if you can.

Players clear content that their performance does not allow. Imagine that better players would scale their performance to this level. Tanks would let mobs run around without any effort to taunt more than one, everybody would stand in aoes, healers wouldn't be able to heal through it - if they cared to heal others than just the tank - etc etc. Progression scaled down to the bottom would be really interesting to see.

Go back and read what I wrote about the possible responses by those confronted with your silver bullet parser data. You haven't addressed that at all, instead you ignore it and imagine that no one could possibly doubt your parser analysis. Your lack of understanding of people not withstanding, your inability or unwillingness to adrress the logical points made simply re-emphasizes what I've prevously posted about some pro-parser posters ignoring any possible downside to them.

Lmao pointing out someone's flaws or giving criticism is BULLYING now. Wow, feeling pressured means you're getting bullied?

I feel pressure all the time at work, or when I'm representing a region's skill level in a competition.

That does not mean I'm being bullied.

You should do some simple research on peer pressure and bullying.

But that aside, and I am a little tired of repeating the same thing over and over again. Why are you talking of critisism to me? What part of the numbers being avalible for all to see means one party is critisizing another. Actually that you even lead in with this means you didn't read or at the very least misunderstood the post.

What part of SE doesn't want parsers used to criticize, critique orpressure other players in their game did you not understand? So any in-game parser they provide will almost certainly NOT provide invidually identifiable parsed damage, it will most likely be party based. Since you want to say I did not read or understand one ormore posts, may I ask precisely why you completely ignore the very many instance that demonstrate the obvious down sides to general parser use.

Numbers being readily avalible to the party is not critisizing the party. They are what they are, people don't need you to point out if their numbers are lower if they are right there for them to see. So the whole critisizing (at least as far as you were responding to my post) thing is out the window.

What is your basis for imagining that there will ever be general availability of parser data for all players? The many instances where players have been disciplined over parser misuse should be adequate evidence that this will not happen. Or do you intend to ignore that as well?

Parsers aren't what turn people into a-holes, they already are a-holes, a parser is a number they can put in their rants. Also, SE adding a parser doesn't mean in any way they are condoning people abusing others with it. You can still report people you realise. Sorry if I seem curt, but every argument against parsers seems to get regurgitated by a new person every couple of pages.

You don't seem curt, you seem to be willfully ignoring any and all arguments against general parser use. I agree that parsers don't make people a-holes. However a-holes make parsers tools of abuse, and there are more a-holes around than you think. Internet anonymity emboldens many more people not normally like that to act like idiots without fear of the consequence. There is a significant downside to parsers which is why private use of them is by far less problematic than general use. I prevously recognized the potential for positive use in end-game teams to hit required performance in end game content. Outside of that they are neutral at best. Untill you actually address the counter arguments, you sound like a very one dimensional person, unable to open your mind to other possibilities.

[Archaell]

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Let's start with a simple question. Why are you so offensive? The pro-parsers should be toxic, not anti-parsers.

I consider myself to be somewhere in the middle, as I don't need exact number, I just want to know if the player is pulling its weight. Let's say 70% of their possible output in regard to gear and job.

That's got nothing to do with the use of parsers

It does. I can't tell the difference between two mediocre players and one really good player carrying somebody underperforming. Parser would tell me who should be my priority on the healing list. It's better for the group if the better performing player stays alive. Also I would not know who should I kick without the parser... and you can complety content while being carried.

Btw. if doing poor dps is good, what about poor healers and tanks with poor enmity management? With them you can't clear content. Are you going to kick them? They have same performance as the dps. Why should you kick them? That's not fair.

I am not saying that parsers are flawless, I agree that they would lead to toxic behaviour, it might create stress for few players, but it is still an improvement!

[Kosmos992k]

Let's start with a simple question. Why are you so offensive? The pro-parsers should be toxic, not anti-parsers.

How am I so offensive? Is it offensive to ask you to answer the points made, or explain why you simply ignore them? I have noticed a trend on this forum recently where people ignore opposing points, and get offended by opposing points of view, is your position so weak that it cannot stand a critical approach? Perhaps you simply can't deal with mild sarcasm? For someone who argues their position so strongly, you seem to be quite fragile under criticism. Oh, wait, lets imagine we're ingame and your dps is lacking. IF this how you react to criticism there, how would you feel being faced down by someone critical of your skill in-game?

I don't actually expect dps players to do their best. I expect them to do well enough.

btw. I have nothing against tanks (ok, maybe a little bit, as I want to dps too ^^) and healers who dps. If the situation allows it, dpsing as tank/healer can be really rewarding. But tanks and healers should not substitute for poor dps, they should provide it as an extra - As you said it leads to nice runs.

Something I can completely agree with.

[Atoli]

I can't tell the difference between two mediocre players and one really good player carrying somebody underperforming.

Honestly, being able to tell that something is wrong with how someone plays without a spreadsheet telling you every little detail, is what I consider the bare minimum to teach and preach to other players about how they are supposed to play their class.
Just a general rule of thumb, not about you personally. And teaching others is the thing this thread is in some twisted way trying to promote, isn't it? A teacher should be competent himself. Seeing basic flaws in a rotation is part of that.

How am I so offensive?

Even I, who pretty much agrees with you mostly, think that your tone is unnecessarily provocative with harsh sarcasm and needless assumptions about others. Archaell is right when he says that it's kind of weird how we are concerned that official parsers will make the community more toxic but then don't act different from what we are trying to prevent

[Kosmos992k]

Even I, who pretty much agrees with you mostly, think that your tone is unnecessarily provocative with harsh sarcasm and needless assumptions about others. Archaell is right when he says that it's kind of weird how we are concerned that official parsers will make the community more toxic but then don't act different from what we are trying to prevent

I'm trying to get someone to actually answer the points made instead of repeating the same point that they've made before - which have been answered by you, me and others several times over.

I was specifically sarcastic at the ridicoulous attempt to claiming to be bullied into a firce carry by a player with poor skill. It's an utterly ludicrous claim to make, not least because of the existence of vote-kicking.

However, be that as it may, I also get very tired of posters who immediately draw the victim card when they have no counter argument. It's easy to distract from the discussion by crying foul because of a claimed offense. I'm honestly shocked by how fragile people here are in the face of what is, in all honesty, mild sarcasm. Either way, continuing to discuss the use of sarcasm in a discussion/debate simply derails the original discussion.

So, without further sarcasm, I'll move on.

[ChazNatlo]

Let's start with a simple question. Why are you so offensive? The pro-parsers should be toxic, not anti-parsers.

Barely paying attention to the conversation, there is a bunch of stuff I can barely pay attention to and I don't really care about parsers one way or the other. But this line is blatantly false. You can have toxic people on both sides of the argument. Don't fool yourself into thinking that the "correct side" has only morally upstanding people and that the "incorrect" side is vile.