The issue nobody wants to address

[Welsper59]

Then that analogy doesn't work. If you make a party finder saying casuals for fun only. And 2 people join in trying to force you to be good. I just don't think that's a realistic scenario. This is a video game, basketball is a game. You have one goal. Win. If you are so lazy in self improving that you're willing to hold back other people from their goals, I dunno what to tell you.

Was that aimed at me? If so, my reply is that the goal is still achieved in most cases. There's only a few select instances of combat related content that can't be done with less people than "required." An overwhelming majority of combat content in this game is faceroll win capable. Chances are, those bads aren't going to be taking part in those few instances of content, which just for reference, is endgame difficult raids like Savage.

If you do encounter people like that, then you have every right to kick them from the group... not sure why you'd be pugging some random stranger for Savage or equivalent difficulty content without even running them by a parse or viewing their rotation on a dummy ("official" way to put it) but if you are... it is what it is. And don't give me any BS on being reported for the parse when it comes to content like that. If someone is that worried about a random reporting a parse for savage content, say the viewing rotation bull. If they refuse, don't take them. It really is that simple.

[tjw]

Then that analogy doesn't work. If you make a party finder saying casuals for fun only. And 2 people join in trying to force you to be good. I just don't think that's a realistic scenario. This is a video game, basketball is a game. You have one goal. Win. If you are so lazy in self improving that you're willing to hold back other people from their goals, I dunno what to tell you.

However, just like basketball has different ranks, the gaming community also has ranks. You cannot expect the casual, once-a-week basketball player to play on the same level and skill bracket as a professional and paid player, do you? And just like the players themselves, different skill brackets have different skill requirements; a casual workplace basketball competition can't be held in the same vein as the NBA in regards to skills and technical knowledge goes. There a common expectations of what is required, yes, but in my books, I expect dungeons and any DF content to have any type of player to be put in a party with me, with the only requirement that we have the skill level and damage/heal output to complete the dungeon in an adequate time period REFLECTIVE of dungeon difficulty and player skill.

If the person in question is ACTIVELY holding back by performing beyond sub-par, that is something that needs to change. Someone however performing at an adequate level as their current skill bracket, and managed to complete the goal i.e. WIN, I see no reason to condemn their playstyle. Expecting everyone to perform close to the potential limit of their class in every content is like expecting fastfood restaurants to turn out three-hat quality products. It's not going to happen. You, as the skilled veteran player, can play to the best of your potential and outplay your fellow DF members, just as how a skilled basketball player joining a small competition will outplay both his team and their opponents. Just don't expect others to be in the same level as you are.

well they would have to actually read them before you could say that...which they do not.

we are 100% alone on here...very sad and makes a very bad impression of them!

Blaming them isn't going to make this circle break anytime soon. Maybe we have a bad impression of the representatives because they have a bad impression of us? Ever heard of give and take? If I was the developer, I certainly wouldn't wish to re-visit a place where I'm treated with disrespect and scorn on a daily basis. They are only human, after all.

[Mindylou]

Threads like this is the reason the devs don't take the English forums very seriously - we just jump around in circles, spewing thread clones around us as we go.

In most forums I frequent, your thread gets closed if you didn't search for the topic beforehand and a similar thread exists.

well they would have to actually read them before you could say that...which they do not.

we are 100% alone on here...very sad and makes a very bad impression of them!

[Critical-Limit]

I'm talking about effort. I don't care if you fail 1000 times if I see you're putting in the work.

Obviously I don't expect a 2 week player that grinded to 60 to do A4S in a couple runs. What I'm talking about is if you have a team of 8. 4 people are try hards and are good. 2 can carry their own weight, the other 2 are causing wipes. One player just spams the same 2 moves and says "I play how I want for fun"

[Critical-Limit]

The other player realizing they're holding the team back from victory asks for advice and goes practice on a dummy. This guy deserves to remain on the team. The other guy is the person who should spam content with people who also spam 1 move and lose over and over. But it's for fun so it shouldn't be a problem

[Atoli]

Ok tell me what is fun about pressing 4 keys in a 10 secind sequence (the incorrect sequence mind you) and pressing those 4 keys in the same 10 second time period correctly (doing your correct rotation) what is so different about bothering to do the proper rotation than not?

"Fun" about it is that many people just want to hop into the game, play around a bit with something they enjoy instead of spending hours upon hours reading 80 different guides, weighting their worth, spending even more time learning what they read about ingame, only to realize that just because it works on a dummy doesn't mean it works in content so they spend even MORE time trying to learn to apply it to content - which they don't enjoy, because after all, they just wanted some simple fun. If you have a limited amount of free time, why spend it doing something you don't enjoy?

my other issue is the people who think doing the proper rotation is only a .002% difference, it's NOT theres a reason why I'll be pulling over 1k on a boss and an equally geared dps is only doing 400 I'm sure their rotation and the difference in dmg is a bit (a lot) more than .002%.

I have a friend who is very dedicated to this game. This person spent a crazy amount of time to forget everything about her class she knew to go for a more "perfect" rotation. The difference in the end was 10-20 dps. Out of over 1000. Wow, that SURE was worth the effort...

I hope that even teaching one person (which is what I hope to do with this thread) is more beneficial to the community than running with players who already know what to do.

I enjoy that too. But nothing is stopping you from doing that already. This thread is more of a "give us an ingame parser so we can see who sucks!"-thing than anything that will actually help people. Because the ones who DO care already are grabbing all the information they can (from other players, from the internet, etc.) and the ones who don't care won't suddenly start caring just because you tell them they could deal more dmg if they just put in the effort to change their whole play style. I'm not saying everyone who is in favor of what this thread is promoting just wants to bash people or sort out the "bad" players on their team, but I'm saying that's what WILL happen, like it or not, because it already is happening, even with inofficial parsers.

you're lazy and your mental capacity is probably lower than mine since you believe using the right skills is akin to making this game the equivalent of your day job.

Yay, we crossed over into "insult the other party to prove your point" territory
If I had to spend several hours a day to sit over excel documents to wonder if I could have squeezed out 100 dmg more of my rotation or spend an equal amount of time on the internet to contemplate which guide to follow, I'd rather get paid for it, sorry. Because yes, there are actual dayjobs that pay well for stuff like doing research on the internet

And somehow you don't think it's apathetic of you to join a team in basketball where people want to become really good but are being held back by their teamates who don't care? IMO you shouldn't bother joining a team with random people. You should be the one who makes the effort to find like minded people and play in your driveway. Leave the sponsored teams and school teams to serious players who want to get scouted or improve.

First: I'M the one paying to play the sport, no one is sponsoring anything. Second, the minority are the group who should find like-minded people, not the whole team except for 2 or 3 people who want to play on a level that goes far beyond anything anyone else in the team is willing to do, it's as easy as that. Same with this game - if someone wants to suck, he has every right to do so because he neither keeps resources away from you nor does he stop you from "getting scouted" by a great static or whatever. I clearly stated in the beginning that it is a team that is solely playing for fun, not to start a basketball careeer or anything.

I want to at least carry my weight, if not more. There is a big gap between 200 dps and 1400 dps.

Don't think even for a second that someone who sucks THAT bad is gonna change because you tell him "I can see on the parser that you don't deal enough dmg for your ilvl!".


All in all, what I'm trying to say is:
I'm not against parsers. They have their place, for those who want to use them to improve their game. I just don't see any worth in them being official because they ARE going to be abused, even if that is not what any of the people on this thread plan to do with it (although some already outright stated that's exactly what they want to do..)
What you actually want to change is people's attitude towards the game and that just won't be happening, parser or no parser. Honestly, I probably haven't met as many players who sucked THAT badly as you guys seem to meet all the time, but the ones I did were in no way interested in improving, despite knowing they weren't even doing the minimum of their job. No amount of numbers you throw at them will change the amount of effort they are willing to put in (and yes, to some people pressing more than 1-2-1-2 is already too much). What's needed isn't a public shaming board - what is needed is that everyone learns already to just deal with it instead of making a big deal out of it.
If you see someone sucks - and any "good" player notices it, even in simple 4-man content - try to give them advice on how to be better. If they apprechiate it, fine. You didn't need an ingame parser for that.
If they don't, fine too. If the content is easy enough to clear it anyways, for example normal dungeon runs, just go on. Taking 3 minutes longer isn't gonna kill you. If it's content with harsh dps checks, just kick the person and be done with it.
Just learn to deal with people not living up to your expectations, because that's how life is, and a parser is not a magical tool that will brainwash every player to suddenly become totally motivated.

Oh, and before this gets personal again: I use guides (not that they teach me anything new, ever, but I still check if what I'm doing is right). I let people parse for me. I enjoy knowing that I pulled my weight and did well. I get mad inside when I meet a dps who only uses one single skill because he thinks it's the strongest one he has so it has to be more effective than using a combo, right? and then gets mad when I tell him otherwise. I'm annoyed when a dungeon run takes longer because someone doesn't play to their full potential or when I have to requeue for BisEX 3 times until I finally find a party able to clear it. But you know what? I also learned to live with it, because I'm not as ignorant to think others should spend as much effort on a GAME as I do.

[Critical-Limit]

Then like I said your analogy doesn't work. I've never seen a scenario once where it was advertised that it's for fun and casual. And 2 try hards join a team of 6 casuals and tells them how to play. If you join a "clear" group you have to have a minimum skillset to even beat it. You honestly can't even compare this to basketball. Basketball analogy would better fit PVP.

At what point is it unacceptable to play "for fun" in a objective based PvE mode. When players start running through gathering all the mobs as healer and dies over and over. When someone purposely makes behemoth in like crystal tower destroy rocks so you wipe cuz it's fun? I mean he advertised "it's for fun" so he can wipe on purpose for fun right?

Where is the bottom limit

[Gilraen]

At what point is it unacceptable to play "for fun" in a objective based PvE mode. When players start running through gathering all the mobs as healer and dies over and over. When someone purposely makes behemoth in like crystal tower destroy rocks so you wipe cuz it's fun? I mean he advertised "it's for fun" so he can wipe on purpose for fun right?

Where is the bottom limit

I've only ever seen behavior like that after a /voteabandon fails followed by failed requests to be kicked cause someone isn't satisfied with how the run is progressing or with how another party member is performing. I.e. the Malcontent player. Most players are not this badly behaved. I'm not a player that's always striving to improve, nor am I a 'bad' player, but I have never acted as is purported in that analogy. I'm incredibly patient and only give up on a run when everyone else does because I don't have the right to impose myself on others. I think this is one of the things that people have issue with with all the talk about parsers.

[Critical-Limit]

This is a team based game. If we're failing because of 1 player. You have the right to communicate to them they need to "try" to improve or they want someone else. They have the right to refuse.

I made up ridiculous scenarios, to show the extreme side of things. So maybe people who are fine with standing still and doing 300dps, can see how it feels to be in a situation where they cant win because their teamates aren't doing the minimum of their job. what do casuals consider the cut off point where lol'in into failure stops being fun.

[melisande]

All i have to say is - Go back to WoW you parsing fools.