The issue nobody wants to address

[Whiteroom]

Well the question is, even if we had official parsers... what are you gonna do about someone playing poorly? Put up pretty words as you forcibly kick them from a party that could still have facerolled almost any given content with? You'd probably get reported for that, and honestly... that's rightfully so for that situation. Maybe offer some assistance and expect them to suddenly be better in a matter of seconds/minutes? Believe that you helped that one person, then you suddenly come upon more that you feel needs to be helped, and actually think you'll have the patience to deal with that time and time again? Or, in that situation, would you just become complacent and be back to square one, as though nothing had changed?

I'm not against parsers and would love to see them be official, but this fairy tale belief that they'll suddenly save the whole game from the existence of a bad player is ridiculous and needs to die off lol. Parsers don't even affect bad tanks or healers in this game much, and yet there are A LOT of them around. So you hold a bad DPS accountable... big deal. What does that do? It merely gives you a tool to look down on someone and tell them they need to improve. What does that honestly give you? A pointless witch hunt that does absolutely nothing from the perspective that it spares others of bad players. Chances are, if anyone actually pays attention to that in content that it doesn't matter, you'd actively be looking for someone to "burn at the stake".

Throw that argument and fairy tale defense away and stick to the actual benefit of players that WANT to find self betterment. They're the ones that need the parsers, even though they are likely also the ones who already do use them, or at the very least already are decent at the game because they follow guides/advice. For the long-term bads you encounter now, they will always be bad, and you'll complain and do nothing about it

You know, I wasn't going to respond to this as I considered it foolish and that you were most likely trolling, but you took the time to write it out, so I will respond.

At no point did I, or anyone allude to parsers being some magical cure all (Hint: there is no full party esuna for all excuses for sub par play, not having an absolute solution for something doesn't mean you don't try to improve it...)for everything wrong with the game. That you think anyone is saying it is even close to an absolute is a little comical.
You suggest improvements that you think will make the game better, and I believe that this will. For reasons that have been stated time and time again, in countless threads, so no point of repeating them in this post.

It's also funny that you seem to think that I or anyone would think they would react the same to every scenario in game, while you yourself have the grand wisdom to see that each situation is different, and will be handled on and individual basis, based off any number of factors.

That you seem to think that bads gonna be bad is a contradiction to you asserting that people react differently at different times even. Of course ther will be those who will always be bad. But not all players who are bad will remain bad is what you left out. Those who think that they are going on fine or even great, when they are actually face with the numbers that show them if they are right or wrong, are likely to react to those numbers. Those DRGs that think keeping their buffs up don't really have that much of an effect for example, or those BRDs who don't keep up dots or buffs, not to mention those dps who think wearing fending acc doesn't change your output much, or even that person who was advocating SCH not using cleric stance to apply dots in the other thread, would be able to see that it is actually a signifigant difference. Now while there would be some who don't change at all, there will be a lot who will.

As has been stated a million times, its not about making all players world first level raiders, it's about giving the population a tool they can use to improve their own game, as well as their teams.

P.S. whats with the off hand fear mongering about getting reported for kicking? the statement that players who are not playstyles not matching the rest of the group is an acceptable reason to kick, is generally accepted enough that I feel no need to link it. I have kicked very few people, but never once has there been a fear of reprecussions from a GM. I honestly can't see anyone but an extreme worrywort even taking this into consideration. I mean, you would see at least an odd post from people contending the GM action if it was remotely common, and I've seen none as of yet. Not to say it can't happen, but it has to be so rare as to not matter.

[Kosmos992k]

Those who think that they are going on fine or even great, when they are actually face with the numbers that show them if they are right or wrong, are likely to react to those numbers.

I think you need to learn more about human nature. Those who will respond favorably in these situations will do so without the use of numbers from a parser. They are in the minority, and are already trying to do better, which is why they will overcome their pride and listen. Far more people will be mildly offended because you've used a parser to criticize them, people do NOT like criticism, criticism makes people defensive, and they will typically ingore or spurn advice because their defensiveness and pride wont let them listen. Some will be more offended than others and some view offence as a good defence, and so will respond negatively. Another sizeable group will ignoreyou because they don't care, are too young to care, or are happy with the way they are, and trying to tell them otherwise will be perceived as bullying. This does not even cover players trolling the game.

In the end though, whether you realize this or not, you are in effect trying to impose your expectations on others and using a data mining tool to do so. A significant proportion of the people you'll meet will feel pressured by that; another word for that is bullied. In general people really do not like to feel that way.

As has been stated a million times, its not about making all players world first level raiders, it's about giving the population a tool they can use to improve their own game, as well as their teams.

I believe it has been shown, that parsers are inevitably used (by a minority of players) in ways that are far from constructive. This is unhelpful to the community, within a private, team envuronment suchas a static, such a tool may have a place, but in the general community, parsers are effectively pit player against player; do we really need to facilitate data based ganking of players?

[Archaell]

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What's your stance on forcing others to carry you through content?

That's imo also kind of bulling and exploitation of others - and that's also something which does exist right now (in comparison to theoretical parsers).

Players clear content that their performance does not allow. Imagine that better players would scale their performance to this level. Tanks would let mobs run around without any effort to taunt more than one, everybody would stand in aoes, healers wouldn't be able to heal through it - if they cared to heal others than just the tank - etc etc. Progression scaled down to the bottom would be really interesting to see.

[Atoli]

What's your stance on forcing others to carry you through content?
Players clear content that their performance does not allow. Tanks would let mobs run around without any effort to taunt more than one, everybody would stand in aoes, healers wouldn't be able to heal through it - if they cared to heal others than just the tank - etc etc.

Why not consider it a challenge to yourself to get through that?
I'm also mildly annoyed having to carry people through content (someone mentioned Titan EX on the last page, it's not rare to have 5/8 fall down before the fight is over. Do I particulary enjoy being the only dps left standing? Nah.) but like I said time and time again, parsers don't change that. If you feel someone is too bad at playing you can already kick them from your party. The thing is, unless it's TOO extremely bad, most people don't bother waiting for replacements. They make due with what they have, be it a tank who can't keep hate, dps who stand in each and every AoE or healers with a god complex.
So why not challenge yourself and get better to the point where you can get through the content with others not contributing enough or actively hindering you (trolls)?
Why you should change your playstyle, you ask? Well, why should others change theirs to accomodate you? Don't assume that every bad player wants to get carried through content. Maybe they are fine with only clearing it after outgearing it by a lot. It's your own fault you carry them through when they wouldn't be able to do it by themselves yet.

[Archaell]

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I am lazy, like really really lazy. And also I do not have the heart to kick somebody for their performance.

How can be "not carrying" an option when you always do your best. Unless you suggest that everybody should slack off - in which case nobody would clear nothing. Nope. That's not an option.

[Kosmos992k]

What's your stance on forcing others to carry you through content?

That's got nothing to do with the use of parsers, as for forcing others to do anything, I'd have thought you would have figured out by now where I stand on forcing anyoneto do anything, I clearly am against it. Before you have a littl aha moment, a player who in a group is unable to complete the content on their own is forcing no one to do anything, that is one of the things vote kicking is for.

That's imo also kind of bulling and exploitation of others - and that's also something which does exist right now (in comparison to theoretical parsers).

ROTFLMAO! So, you're telling me that if some dps player has such deplorable damage output rather than votekicking them and replacing them with a readily available DPS player, you'llcower before there poor skill level and feel bullied into carrying them through content? Don't be ridicuolous. Your paper thin arguement for general parser use is bad enough, but attempting to turn things around to play the victim card just takes things to a whole new level. Instead of coming up with ridiculous assertions such as this, why don't you address the points I made, if you can.

Players clear content that their performance does not allow. Imagine that better players would scale their performance to this level. Tanks would let mobs run around without any effort to taunt more than one, everybody would stand in aoes, healers wouldn't be able to heal through it - if they cared to heal others than just the tank - etc etc. Progression scaled down to the bottom would be really interesting to see.

Go back and read what I wrote about the possible responses by those confronted with your silver bullet parser data. You haven't addressed that at all, instead you ignore it and imagine that no one could possibly doubt your parser analysis. Your lack of understanding of people not withstanding, your inability or unwillingness to adrress the logical points made simply re-emphasizes what I've prevously posted about some pro-parser posters ignoring any possible downside to them.

Lmao pointing out someone's flaws or giving criticism is BULLYING now. Wow, feeling pressured means you're getting bullied?

I feel pressure all the time at work, or when I'm representing a region's skill level in a competition.

That does not mean I'm being bullied.

You should do some simple research on peer pressure and bullying.

But that aside, and I am a little tired of repeating the same thing over and over again. Why are you talking of critisism to me? What part of the numbers being avalible for all to see means one party is critisizing another. Actually that you even lead in with this means you didn't read or at the very least misunderstood the post.

What part of SE doesn't want parsers used to criticize, critique orpressure other players in their game did you not understand? So any in-game parser they provide will almost certainly NOT provide invidually identifiable parsed damage, it will most likely be party based. Since you want to say I did not read or understand one ormore posts, may I ask precisely why you completely ignore the very many instance that demonstrate the obvious down sides to general parser use.

Numbers being readily avalible to the party is not critisizing the party. They are what they are, people don't need you to point out if their numbers are lower if they are right there for them to see. So the whole critisizing (at least as far as you were responding to my post) thing is out the window.

What is your basis for imagining that there will ever be general availability of parser data for all players? The many instances where players have been disciplined over parser misuse should be adequate evidence that this will not happen. Or do you intend to ignore that as well?

Parsers aren't what turn people into a-holes, they already are a-holes, a parser is a number they can put in their rants. Also, SE adding a parser doesn't mean in any way they are condoning people abusing others with it. You can still report people you realise. Sorry if I seem curt, but every argument against parsers seems to get regurgitated by a new person every couple of pages.

You don't seem curt, you seem to be willfully ignoring any and all arguments against general parser use. I agree that parsers don't make people a-holes. However a-holes make parsers tools of abuse, and there are more a-holes around than you think. Internet anonymity emboldens many more people not normally like that to act like idiots without fear of the consequence. There is a significant downside to parsers which is why private use of them is by far less problematic than general use. I prevously recognized the potential for positive use in end-game teams to hit required performance in end game content. Outside of that they are neutral at best. Untill you actually address the counter arguments, you sound like a very one dimensional person, unable to open your mind to other possibilities.

[Archaell]

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Let's start with a simple question. Why are you so offensive? The pro-parsers should be toxic, not anti-parsers.

I consider myself to be somewhere in the middle, as I don't need exact number, I just want to know if the player is pulling its weight. Let's say 70% of their possible output in regard to gear and job.

That's got nothing to do with the use of parsers

It does. I can't tell the difference between two mediocre players and one really good player carrying somebody underperforming. Parser would tell me who should be my priority on the healing list. It's better for the group if the better performing player stays alive. Also I would not know who should I kick without the parser... and you can complety content while being carried.

Btw. if doing poor dps is good, what about poor healers and tanks with poor enmity management? With them you can't clear content. Are you going to kick them? They have same performance as the dps. Why should you kick them? That's not fair.

I am not saying that parsers are flawless, I agree that they would lead to toxic behaviour, it might create stress for few players, but it is still an improvement!

[Kosmos992k]

Let's start with a simple question. Why are you so offensive? The pro-parsers should be toxic, not anti-parsers.

How am I so offensive? Is it offensive to ask you to answer the points made, or explain why you simply ignore them? I have noticed a trend on this forum recently where people ignore opposing points, and get offended by opposing points of view, is your position so weak that it cannot stand a critical approach? Perhaps you simply can't deal with mild sarcasm? For someone who argues their position so strongly, you seem to be quite fragile under criticism. Oh, wait, lets imagine we're ingame and your dps is lacking. IF this how you react to criticism there, how would you feel being faced down by someone critical of your skill in-game?

I don't actually expect dps players to do their best. I expect them to do well enough.

btw. I have nothing against tanks (ok, maybe a little bit, as I want to dps too ^^) and healers who dps. If the situation allows it, dpsing as tank/healer can be really rewarding. But tanks and healers should not substitute for poor dps, they should provide it as an extra - As you said it leads to nice runs.

Something I can completely agree with.

[Atoli]

I can't tell the difference between two mediocre players and one really good player carrying somebody underperforming.

Honestly, being able to tell that something is wrong with how someone plays without a spreadsheet telling you every little detail, is what I consider the bare minimum to teach and preach to other players about how they are supposed to play their class.
Just a general rule of thumb, not about you personally. And teaching others is the thing this thread is in some twisted way trying to promote, isn't it? A teacher should be competent himself. Seeing basic flaws in a rotation is part of that.

How am I so offensive?

Even I, who pretty much agrees with you mostly, think that your tone is unnecessarily provocative with harsh sarcasm and needless assumptions about others. Archaell is right when he says that it's kind of weird how we are concerned that official parsers will make the community more toxic but then don't act different from what we are trying to prevent

[ChazNatlo]

Let's start with a simple question. Why are you so offensive? The pro-parsers should be toxic, not anti-parsers.

Barely paying attention to the conversation, there is a bunch of stuff I can barely pay attention to and I don't really care about parsers one way or the other. But this line is blatantly false. You can have toxic people on both sides of the argument. Don't fool yourself into thinking that the "correct side" has only morally upstanding people and that the "incorrect" side is vile.