Raider to Non-Raider: an exhibition on thoughts and misconceptions

[Snugglebutt]

SE should not put additional main story content within savage mode raids which would not be present in normal mode. The difficulty of raids, increase or decrease of such as a discussion I am fine with and there are good points can argue on both sides. The gear levels, how high or how low the difference between savage and normal discussion I am fine with. Adding new mechanics and visually different gear I am fine with between normal and savage modes.

Even adding titles, minions and potentially a mount of some sort in savage not present in normal I am fine with...but putting additional 'main story' related content in savage mode and that same additional story not present in normal is something I am not fine with AT ALL...the entire additional main story related content should be accessible in the normal mode and if any additional story were to be added to savage it should not be related to the 'main story'. That is something I will not budge or change my opinion on.

In terms of how much content is present at any given time to keep hardcore raiders interested, that is partially down to SE designing their game with the player base majority in mind but they are still providing new challenges to the hardcore from time to time. It is also subjective between individual players how long they can maintain interest in any content but SE cannot make the game catered more to the hardcore raiders then casuals when they form only a tiny percentage of the player base. That's just common sense and I do not see that ever changing for good reason.

Also stop with the victim cards being thrown around by the raiders in this thread and vice versa, you are no more a victim to hostility about what you enjoy than the casuals who so often also get insulted by raiders and especially the hardcore raiders on here. Your biased in your perceptions of how often you find yourself insulted by such casuals much like if your a casual player you are biased in your perceptions of how often you find yourself insulted by such raiders. Just because someone is a casual player in terms of how they tackle content does not mean they won't be passionate about the content they enjoy just like you may be about what you enjoy. Harsh words get exchanged on both sides but neither is more of a victim than the other.

[Sartori]

Well, an award for the longest post ever on the forums. If you are posting for personal catharsis, congrats on a job well done. If you are posting for the purpose of communicating to others, you may want to try to make your points quicker so as to not lose all your potential readers.

Yeah no way does anybody have the patience to slog through all that.....reading is a bygone era...

[Odett]

I agree with a lot of posts here. We had to replace several people in the first few weeks of Savage and trial a lot of people for the sake of progression. Then we got a decent static and were steadily heading for server second of A3S. That is until our SCH suddenly called it quits, which resulted in a chain reaction of people leaving after their closest in-game friend called it quits. It's sad, as that's not even an uncommon issue. Raiding teams that have been raiding for years together are suddenly disbanding as it's no longer fun/rewarding to keep on going.

I agree with you and OP so much. Having gone into BCoB, SCoB, and FCoB during the patch in which they originally came out, I've found Alex Savage to be much more challenging. I've been with my current raid team since T6 SCoB and playing with these people has been my absolute favorite part of FFXIV and I've met absolutely incredible people whose friendships I hope to keep for many years to come. In no way would I ever suggest shafting anyone in order to progress. Part of me really likes the added challenge of Alex Savage, but its increased difficulty, lack of freshness to its fights, and bland gear rewards really don't help it at all.

SCoB was indeed very challenging when it came out (to me, anyway), and getting our first T7 clear is something I'll always remember about this game because that turn was infamous for being the static killer. SCoB may have been a little frustrating sometimes when it was still new, but the freshness of it really kept you going. It was fun wiping to Melusine because the concept of shrieks and voices and all the other mechanics were new and it was a blast getting used to. It was fresh to see a boss you had never encountered, deal with a completely new fight, seeing the new battle arena. Those factors kept us from getting burned out whenever we moved up to the next turn, and HA armor is undoubtedly some of the coolest-looking armor in this game. The higher item levels that SCoB gave us helped us perform better and it was cool (like the OP said) being able to stand out in your DF group performance-wise. The point wasn't to look down on other players, but more of a sense of pride in wearing armor that didn't share its look with anything else in the game.

While the inclusion of Alex Normal was a nice step in adding more casual content, doing Savage feels more stale as a result. Wiping in Coils at first was fun due to seeing a completely new fight, but it doesn't feel the same when you've already fought the boss you're currently fighting. I was already tired of A1S after my first try, and a lot of players are encountering this fatigue as well. The point is that Alex Normal only achieves to convey a very mediocre story to players that don't raid. In no way does it act as a stepping stone to Savage mode, because the difference in difficulty is huge. On top this, we're getting more casual 24 man content in 3.1 that gives you better gear, so the core audience in mind for Alex Normal will most likely be lost anyway in the matter of one patch cycle.

The "porridge is extremely cold or extremely hot" analogy works wonders here, because midcore raiders are really at a standstill right now. My static is tired right now, and butting heads against much harder versions of fights we've already done, no cool cutscene at the end of a clear, and no cool-looking armor at the end of a hard-fought victory really lowers our motivation. There is considerably less fun with HW's progression raiding compared to ARR's coil, and I'm glad that a lot of players are taking note of this.

[Odett]

I still don't see why people are crying about this, it's insane, like as if this was the first game to offer two different difficulty levels of the same content. Have any of you even played Diablo? Same game all the way through, change the difficulty and you get better gear drops. Even Metal Gear Solid 5 does this with the Substenance, Extreme and Total Stealth difficulties on certain missions, completing them results in a higher payout and higher skilled soldiers for base raiding. Savage has different mechanics then Normal mode as well, so it's basically like doing Savage Coil and Normal Coil and I haven't heard anyone complain about there being two SCoB difficulties, I mean Savage SCoB didn't even drop gear, only a title and people still did it. Raiding has never been exclusive in this game either, but people act like it always was and should be, I seriously don't understand this whole "Savage should have came first because I'm a raider" mentality either. Honestly more people would raid if T5 didn't leave such a bad taste in people's mouths from bad design. Furthermore raiding for gear is a pointless reason as I've stated that it only slightly boost our stats and ilv, it doesn't exactly make you a good player, knowing your skills is what ultimately lead to clears and make you a great player, as is your attitude towards others. It's like members of this community have only played this game in their entire lives, it's painful almost as painful as blaming a raid on your burn out, when the entire game is depleted and a utter mess thanks to bad planning and developer design ideology. So if you think that locking out story from everyone, the reason we all bought this in the first place is a good idea, you're almost as delusional as Donald Trump.

You're grossly missing the point. The reason why no one complained about the two difficulty levels for SCoB was because it never alienated midcore raiders. People who saw raiding more as "business" or were lucky enough to have everyone in their group be a top-tier player had savage mode as a challenge, and SCoB was there for everyone else. The difference between the contrast in difficulty of Alex Normal and Alex Savage, and SCoB Normal and SCoB Savage is that the former is either extremely easy or very challenging, and the latter was challenging and extremely challenging. SCoB Savage mode never alienated anyone because it was released AFTER normal mode, and on top of that, SCoB gave midcore raiders plenty of challenge, progression, and reward to sink their teeth into. Alex Savage was released when we were already tired of Alex Normal (because let's face it, they're not very fun fights in the first place and the story is mediocre at best) and it made a lot of raid groups quit because they didn't see the challenge being worth fighting bosses they had already beaten multiple times, getting gear that looks the same, having no satisfying cutscene to look forward to after a clear, and not even wondering who the next boss would be because it had all been spoiled for them.

A lot of people here complain that "raiders" want to take away content from them, but literally the only thing right now in this game that is not casual is Alex Savage. Raiders get FOUR fights for them to work towards, and the increased difficulty of AS3 and AS4 has become a wall for many raid groups, because the two version of the current raid are either way too easy, or extremely challenging and stripped of many incentives.

[Hito-Shura]

I entirely agree with the op of this thread and I feel the devs should read this and take it very seriously. The situation is dire and they will keep losing players if they refuse to change things.

If I may also add...

Another major flaw of Alexander Savage is the lack of exclusivity in gear and its ilvl vis a vis the increase in difficulty. I personally don't mind the current difficulty of Savage mode(though I do believe they are badly designed and very badly balanced for the game) but what really bothers me is the serious lack of incentive to go through such hard content. The story is not different, the bosses are not different aside from their difficulty increase and the gear is exactly the same as normal mode... And damn those sets are ugly and boring.

Essentially, what SE did was increasing the difficulty to a near impossible level to keep players occupied while they go on vacation and actually had to brilliant idea to actually reduce its quality by removing all exclusivity -AND- making its reward ilvl the same as future and easier content. Sure, the casual have the rights to have good gear too but when the hardcore raiders challenge themselves with the savage raid and are not properly rewarded for their achievements... That is the worst mistake one can make!

Aside from that, what other people say in this thread is very very true and I hope any authority reading this will take it seriously and not just like any other ranting thread common to this forum.

[Reih]

The moment a community starts gathering data to gauge players based on sent data from 3rd party app to differentiate between good and bad performance of a player and use this to form groups is where things get messed up. Sadly these activities are mostly used by raiders. I won't post any link to that kind of stuff. Raiders are discriminating other players by these means and so dehumanizing the game in favor of raw numbers. I do not think raiders and non-raiders can cooperate in this game due to such behavior. Even on trivial stuff like the latest dungeon or the current primal, there's someone that can't deal with that. When I play the game someone rages because one person can't keep up or is new to an event. There has to be a change in the community to "humanize" raiders and it has to come from the raiders. Either acknowledge that there's another kind of player base that can't keep up because it's on the nature of how people approach the game or avoid those players completely.

[zosia]

The moment a community starts gathering data to gauge players based on sent data from 3rd party app to differentiate between good and bad performance of a player and use this to form groups is where things get messed up. Sadly these activities are mostly used by raiders. I won't post any link to that kind of stuff. Raiders are discriminating other players by these means and so dehumanizing the game in favor of raw numbers. I do not think raiders and non-raiders can cooperate in this game due to such behavior. Even on trivial stuff like the latest dungeon or the current primal, there's someone that can't deal with that. When I play the game someone rages because one person can't keep up or is new to an event. There has to be a change in the community to "humanize" raiders and it has to come from the raiders. Either acknowledge that there's another kind of player base that can't keep up because it's on the nature of how people approach the game or avoid those players completely.

Way to paint in such broad strokes. Exactly where are raiders using parsers to openly discriminate against casual players? I am pretty sure parsers are never used to call players out at all since it's reportable.

I don't think any player should be forced to play with anyone. If you don't want to research your class and understand your rotation, go play with like minded people. Skilled players congregate in FCs and LS to play with like minded people. If that bothers you, then I don't know what yo tell you. People, in general, like to form cliques. It happens in real life, it certainly happens in-game.

I think you are just trying to use parsers as a boogie man for some other systemic problem. I personally have never talked about using parsers outside of my FC and that goes for a lot of my hardcore friends. I think you have had a few bad experiences and your letting that spoil your opinion of an entire game population that is extremely diverse.

[Bernelli]

a post

The word you're looking for is assholes, not raiders. Also, your post is absurd.

[cgbspender]

Exactly where are raiders using parsers to openly discriminate against casual players? I am pretty sure parsers are never used to call players out at all since it's reportable.

I've seen this countless times before, in any content, be it pre-50 dungeons, trials... or higher levels dungeons, or raids...And just as they don't represent a majority, it doesn't mean it should be taken lightly..... or even plain denied.

[Odett]

I've seen this countless times before, in any content, be it pre-50 dungeons, trials... or higher levels dungeons, or raids...And just as they don't represent a majority, it doesn't mean it should be taken lightly..... or even plain denied.

and you assume that they're raiders? A jerk will be a jerk, parser or no parser. You're right that it shouldn't be taken lightly or denied, but I've honestly seen more DPS with the lowest numbers blaming a tank, or healer, or anyone else in the group for that matter for a wipe, than seeing a player with a parser ridiculing someone for their numbers.

What some players perceive as "discrimination" matters too. I can tell an underperforming DPS in the most polite way how they can fix their rotation, and depending on the person, they'll call that discrimination. Of course, how you state it matters too. For example, I can point out to a NIN that they'll get more juice out of Aeolian Edge if they use it from the back, or tell them that keeping up Huton matters. I can also be a total jerk and say "you suck" (I won't), but depending on the player, they can take the former comment as if you had told them the latter.

Context matters too. As an example, back when my static was trying to clear T9, we lost a DPS and had to recruit a new one. We tried out a DRG that seemed like an alright dude but his DPS was absolutely abysmal, and we kept hitting awkward phase shifts. No Chaos Thrust combo, the works, you name it. After the raid night ended, I spoke with him privately and told him that he needed to improve his DPS if he wanted to be in the group. I told him my rotation, sent him pictures of my hotbars per his request, and volunteered to watch him at a training dummy. One week later, we raid again and he decides during the raid to make everyone wait 10 minutes so he can rearrange his hot bars and work on a proper rotation INSIDE the fight an entire week after I had given him what help I could. That's not cool. Sometimes a DPS has to be let go because either the content just plain requires more DPS to meet checks, or your group is simply not strong enough to carry other players. There are no hard feelings involved, but it just makes more sense to kick one player who doesn't pull their weight instead of disbanding the entire group.