Tank adjustments we can agree on?

[fm_fenrir]

-Savage Blade and Halone enmity modifiers increased
-Sheltron activates Shield Swipe upon taking magic damage.
-Divine Veil recast to 90 seconds

You have to bundle enmity bonuses with Shield Oath, because OT PLD will destroy a MT if they get more enmity on their main DPS combo in 50-cap content. The only useful arrangement that wouldn't be fighting for threat constantly is PLD/PLD.

The other suggestions, I don't mind so much. Divine Veil I can't comment on, but its description doesn't look that impressive for how long its CD is. Sheltron should give you one guaranteed block of whatever the next incoming damage is, irrespective of whether it gives you a Swipe proc or not.

[Cidolfas86]

I think the biggest change I want before all others is for them to simply remove the damage penalty incurred from having a defensive tank stance up. Make VIT the damage modifier instead of STR and too and we can reduce some of rather large difference between MT and OT damage.

There should be parts of a fight that only a PLD excels at, parts where only DRK excels, and parts where WAR is needed for more than just massive dps spikes. But no one mechanic/enemy should force a certain party makeup in order to clear. Meaning that all tanks are viable and due to the raid design a party can be encouraged to experiment with multiple different party makeups.

I agree with the other part of your post about making all tanks viable, but making them more niche isn't the way to go about it. The more niche they get the higher the chance of having an odd man out which is the situation we currently have now. Both PLD and DRK need tool kits that are spiritually more like WARs-able to adapt to a multitude of situations. If that leads to some homgenization then so be it so long as its about bringing the player and not the job.

[eagledorf]

Yeah, making the next raid cater to Paladin is not what I want to happen. I want Paladin and Dark Knight to just both work properly. The change I suggested to DRK and parry would increase their parry rate with DA substantially so Reprisal should be a reliable enough form of mitigation for physical tank busters. I don't know if it would be enough to be honest, but I'm sure it's a good change and it's hard to judge if more is needed or not until another raid drops.

I would honestly be extremely angry if the next raid had a Flatten mechanic every 30 seconds that just wrecked DRK and was perfect for PLD and they didn't bother to fix the tanks at all.

[Cynric]

snip.

Hallowed Ground is full invincibility, Holmgang stops hp reduction past 1, Living Dead instantly ends the moment you are healed to full regardless of 10 seconds happening or not. Hallowed Ground is just better than Living Dead, Living Dead is worse than holmgang. Holmgang has a shorter CD than living dead and doesn't kill you after its duration if your total HP wasn't healed and it still stops reduction of HP past 1.


Hallowed Ground can be used in any situation, DF, PUG, Static
Holmgang can be used in any situation as well.
Living Dead can not be used with twitchy healers in DF/or PUG groups. Effectively even if your healers wait to heal you for Living Dead you only get 9 out of 10 s for the duration because if they try to heal you up at 10 you'd be dead. Living Dead is nowhere near comparable to Hallowed ground or holmgang. Even still its much closer to holmgang than hallowed ground and with a much longer CD.

As for a sound effect I just use a macro
/micon"living dead"
/ac"living Dead"
/p (Living Dead)(Just used it.)<se.7> HP:<hp>

On a side note despite this showing my remaining HP and spamming it at 1+duration ending I've still had a healer let me die before

[Violette]

Yeah, making the next raid cater to Paladin is not what I want to happen. I want Paladin and Dark Knight to just both work properly. The change I suggested to DRK and parry would increase their parry rate with DA substantially so Reprisal should be a reliable enough form of mitigation for physical tank busters. I don't know if it would be enough to be honest, but I'm sure it's a good change and it's hard to judge if more is needed or not until another raid drops.

I would honestly be extremely angry if the next raid had a Flatten mechanic every 30 seconds that just wrecked DRK and was perfect for PLD and they didn't bother to fix the tanks at all.

Please look forward to it.

Though in all honesty, if the next alexander series has a tank buster every 30-50 seconds that's physical, they better make tome gear equip across all classes so the paladin can swap to dark knight when the final Alexander raid series is magical again.

[karateorangutang]

Please look forward to it.

Though in all honesty, if the next alexander series has a tank buster every 30-50 seconds that's physical, dark knight's are out in favour of paladins, ez.

PLD would be better on farm for certain. This would depend heavily on whether or not the next phases are giant DPS checks again.

I guess we'll see.

[Seku]

PLD would be better on farm for certain. This would depend heavily on whether or not the next phases are giant DPS checks again.

I guess we'll see.

Not really. If you're clearing it w/o PLD during progression to farm status it means you don't need PLD when it is on farm status. As farm status means you've got the fight 100% down and the chances of you losing are considerably low.

But in either case I still don't see PLD really making that huge of a come back even during physical tank busters unless for RoH. Tank Swaps and possible WAR MT is how I see groups getting around this.

[karateorangutang]

Not really. If you're clearing it w/o PLD during progression to farm status it means you don't need PLD when it is on farm status. As farm status means you've got the fight 100% down and the chances of you losing are considerably low.

But in either case I still don't see PLD really making that huge of a come back even during physical tank busters unless for RoH. Tank Swaps and possible WAR MT is how I see groups getting around this.

Don't really dissagree. I just knew in the past theres more room for error with PLD and with gear levels being high then DPS were doing more dmg than needed to be done so a couple tanks I knew preferred PLD to farm because the dmg wasn't needed. Could just be that the outgearing let them play their preferred class.

Not that it matters at all. /shrug.

[eagledorf]

If they bring back legitimate physical tank busters (the kind that do more than twice your HP at progression gear in all VIT) every 30 seconds, Paladin will make a huge comeback because they will have 50% damage reduction before you pop any of your cooldowns from Halone, Shield Oath, and Sheltron alone while DRK will be out because they won't have 50% damage reduction even if they pop Shadow Wall and will just barely have it if they also get Reprisal, which depends on a proc (and Dark Dance is only a 20% increased chance for that proc).

That's how bad the tank design is right now before we even begin to talk about DPS (which is currently the most important issue), stance dancing, or even include WAR in the equation. The gap between physical and magic for Paladin and Dark Knight is literally that big. It wasn't so noticeable this time around because the only actual tank busters this raid were in A1 and A4 and because long-time PLD players are skilled enough to compensate, but they've written themselves into a corner where they can never have threatening tank busters again or they will make at least one tank so undesirable that they're essentially unusable.

[Isius]

^ @eagledorf

Yep, I've said this since Alexander Savage came out from what I felt from my gut. Tank design in FFXIV is currently broken all over the place with zero design philosophy for actual pure tanking in mind. Instead we are given this system where DRK is OP against a lot of magic dmg, PLD is OP when there is a lot of physical dmg, WAR can eat all dmg fine as the next unless a lot of dmg comes at a very fast pace in huge amounts, and they are also OP with dmg/party dmg utility.

It really isn't a issue anymore to just buff PLD anymore imo. But tanking as a whole in this game needs to be rebalanced/adjusted. Some people call it homogenization while I call it balance. Each tank can still have thier own unique type of play style, and special skill sets they can bring to a party, but yes as tanks they do need to have similar dps/def capabilities. One class can still be better then another in those areas, but it shouldn't really be very noticable to the point one class is required over another where one is just left out, and seen as a burden to a party.