Tank adjustments we can agree on?

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

I need to offer you my apologies, Eagledorf. I've come to the realization that my suggestions will take up an incredibly large amount of space since I'm going to explain a ton of things. It will be here, http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...t-happens-when.....

I suggest looking into it often because it will take a while for me to completely finish the thread as it will be an incredibly lengthy read.

[Brannigan]

If I were given free rein to try balancing out the tanks, I think the goals would be

-establish a strong playstyle & identity for paladin
-bring paladin and dark knight to warrior's level
-relax group composition requirements

So global changes:
-STR down and INT down are changed to damage down (for dragon kick as well). Some boss attacks slightly weakened to compensate.
-Parry stat needs to be revamped entirely, not sure what would be best at the moment
-Fending accessories also need to be changed

Paladin specific:
-Shield Swipe changed to 160 potency and combos into every paladin WS. Pacification removed. Can be used after blocking.
-Sword Oath damage lowered to compensate for Swipe changes
-Savage Blade and Halone enmity modifiers increased
-Enhanced Awareness rolled into base ability
-Enhanced Shield Swipe added at level 44, gives Shield Swipe a 20% chance to be usable when you or a party member takes magic damage.
-Sheltron activates Shield Swipe upon taking magic damage.
-Divine Veil recast to 90 seconds
-Tempered Will recast to 2 minutes, also reduces TP cost of Weapon Skills by 100% for the duration
-While in Sword Oath, Covered damage is reduced by 20%
-Clemency cast time reduced to 2.5 seconds.
-Shield Bash TP cost reduced to 40, leaves debuff that increases TP cost of Shield Bash by 165 for 15 seconds.

It's kind of a lot, but it's all centered around getting swipe procs. This lets you increase your damage by using swipe at the right time. Paladin is still weaker against magic damage than the other two tanks, but with no INT/STR debuff any more the gap isn't as bad. Paladin's physical superiority is also slightly decreased by the elimination of STR debuff.

The Cover and Tempered Will changes are there to make them more universally useful, and the Shield Bash change is to avoid a situation like A4S, where bringing a paladin means that you're forcing your DPS or other tank to do stun mechanics (or throwing away 90 TP every 30s). It still breaks combos and takes a GCD, however. Veil and Clemency are straight buffs, because they need it.

Warrior changes:
-They don't really need this, but I think it would be "neat" if Bloodbath was 30 seconds without the trait, and the Blood Shower trait made your Bloodbath heal nearby party members as well.

Dark Knight changes:
-Sole Survivor restores 200 TP as well when its requirements are met.
-Reprisal changed to: Parries the next physical attack and retaliates with a 210 potency attack that lowers the target's damage dealt by 10% for 20 seconds. 30 second recast.
-Dark Arts Power Slash modifier increased.
-Dark Arts Scourge: Decreases the target's slashing resistance by 10% for 30 seconds.
-Salted Earth: also restores (5-10 TP, haven't run numbers) every tick to party members who are standing in it.

Trying to address any lingering TP or utility issues as well as allowing drk/pld to become available without a ninja. The Reprisal change would let them mitigate physical attacks at the same frequency as paladin and warrior, if not at the same potency, and makes their raid utility less reliant on RNG (though I think current reprisal is fine).

Anyway, that's just me. What I expect will actually happen is:
-enmity modifiers increased for paladin
-potency boosted on shield swipe
-divine veil recast reduction
-royal authority potency increase
and they'll call it a day.

[eagledorf]

I know a lot of people like this idea of Swipe comboing into a finisher and I also think it would be fun, but I'm also not entirely sure about a mechanic as twitchy as this that only increases DPS for a tank. I would rather they just increase the potency and keep the added enmity from it low to ensure Goring Blade, Halone, and hate all remain high priorities priorities even when it procs so that tanking remains the primary concern. It would be fantastic if the Pacification actually did something so it regains its original interest entirely. (You also have to consider, if you got a proc after the first step of your combo with your adjustment you wouldn't really use it so this still means Shield Swipe is very situational compared to just a strait-up potency buff. Depending on when you got it it would be used, ignored, or held one GCD.)

I quite like the Shield Bash idea. It's a clever way to make Shield Bash more usable without making chain-stun any cheaper than it currently is. However, for it to really be optimal to use it shouldn't cancel combos. A cancelled Royal Authority is a potency loss of 230 so a Monk has to hold their Steel Peek for the entire 40 seconds before it's better for overall DPS to have the Paladin cancel their combo (it's like 55 seconds if you just divide potencies, but assuming Monk potency is worth like 15-20% more than Paladin potency in Sword Oath it's like 40).

The Sole Survivor idea is also clever and I like it in that it would be a fun mechanic. I don't know that your idea would be perfectly balanced (maybe it should only regen TP in Grit since DRK already has Blood Weapon for when OT), but it's a neat solution to DRK's TP issues.

The Salted Earth idea means double DRK would give basically unlimited free TP for all melee so it's not a good idea at all since you basically use it on cooldown anyway.

[Brannigan]

(You also have to consider, if you got a proc after the first step of your combo with your adjustment you wouldn't really use it so this still means Shield Swipe is very situational compared to just a strait-up potency buff. Depending on when you got it it would be used, ignored, or held one GCD.)

I think that's good, though. Every class should have ways it can screw up its execution and ways it can succeed. Plus, you have Sheltron and Bulwark to force out procs when you want them sometimes. I hadn't really considered double dark knight with salted earth, but I guess if they just got the slashing debuff that would be enough utility along with reprisal.

[fm_fenrir]

-Savage Blade and Halone enmity modifiers increased
-Sheltron activates Shield Swipe upon taking magic damage.
-Divine Veil recast to 90 seconds

You have to bundle enmity bonuses with Shield Oath, because OT PLD will destroy a MT if they get more enmity on their main DPS combo in 50-cap content. The only useful arrangement that wouldn't be fighting for threat constantly is PLD/PLD.

The other suggestions, I don't mind so much. Divine Veil I can't comment on, but its description doesn't look that impressive for how long its CD is. Sheltron should give you one guaranteed block of whatever the next incoming damage is, irrespective of whether it gives you a Swipe proc or not.

[Cynric]

My over complicated fix for living dead

Type Weaponskill
Acquired Level 50 Dark Knight
Requires DRK
TP Cost 0
Cast Time Instant
Cooldown 300s
Range 0y
Radius 0y
Description Grants the effect of Living Dead. When HP is reduced to 0 while under the effect of Living Dead, instead of becoming KO'd, your status will change to Walking Dead. Living Dead Duration: 10s
Walking Dead Duration: 10s
While under the effect of Walking Dead, HP remaining will change to a negative number equivalent to maximum HP, the HP bar color will turn red to signify Walking Dead status. Any healing done will lower the negative number closer to a positive threshold and any damage taken will increase the negative threshold(capped by 0 HP and maximum HP respectively) After 10 seconds walking dead status will end and the remaining negative HP will be subtracted from the Dark Knight's Maximum HP.

I.e. 10000/10000 DRK takes damage reducing it past 1 they enter Walking Dead status, HP bar turns red and HP turns to -10000/10000 , gets cured for 4000 between Soul Eater and a Cure I, HP now equals -6000/10000 (the amount healed would also be shown as blue in the HP bar so in this scenario about half the bar is red and half is blue) If the duration of walking dead ends with the DRK at -6000 they would have 4000 HP left when the duration ends. If the 10 seconds ends with the Negative HP / Maximum HP equaling out to zero i.e.-10000/10000 then the Dark Knight would die. Damage can still be taken during Walking Dead status however most Attacks will not kill the Dark Knight.

To Further expand on that, If you are hit for 13k and you are Walking Dead and your maximum HP is 7000, then your HP would go back to -7000/7000 untill you are healed. Attacks will not push you beyond negative maximum HP and healing will not bring your Walking Dead HP past 0.

[Kiri_Tqnikaze]

Personally I don't wanna see any major changes to the tanks we have now. I feel it has more to do with SE and Yoshi's team not delivering well thought out mechanic driven raids.
There should be parts of a fight that only a PLD excels at, parts where only DRK excels, and parts where WAR is needed for more than just massive dps spikes. But no one mechanic/enemy should force a certain party makeup in order to clear. Meaning that all tanks are viable and due to the raid design a party can be encouraged to experiment with multiple different party makeups.
I understand why we don't want homogenization between any of the party roles, but having all these varied discussions encouraged developers to please everybody. We should be calling for redesigned raid mechanics not redesigned classes/jobs.
I'm not sure how many others will agree, but I hope anyone who read this took it with a grain of salt because we all know what opinions are like.

[Cidolfas86]

I think the biggest change I want before all others is for them to simply remove the damage penalty incurred from having a defensive tank stance up. Make VIT the damage modifier instead of STR and too and we can reduce some of rather large difference between MT and OT damage.

There should be parts of a fight that only a PLD excels at, parts where only DRK excels, and parts where WAR is needed for more than just massive dps spikes. But no one mechanic/enemy should force a certain party makeup in order to clear. Meaning that all tanks are viable and due to the raid design a party can be encouraged to experiment with multiple different party makeups.

I agree with the other part of your post about making all tanks viable, but making them more niche isn't the way to go about it. The more niche they get the higher the chance of having an odd man out which is the situation we currently have now. Both PLD and DRK need tool kits that are spiritually more like WARs-able to adapt to a multitude of situations. If that leads to some homgenization then so be it so long as its about bringing the player and not the job.

[eagledorf]

Yeah, making the next raid cater to Paladin is not what I want to happen. I want Paladin and Dark Knight to just both work properly. The change I suggested to DRK and parry would increase their parry rate with DA substantially so Reprisal should be a reliable enough form of mitigation for physical tank busters. I don't know if it would be enough to be honest, but I'm sure it's a good change and it's hard to judge if more is needed or not until another raid drops.

I would honestly be extremely angry if the next raid had a Flatten mechanic every 30 seconds that just wrecked DRK and was perfect for PLD and they didn't bother to fix the tanks at all.

[Violette]

Yeah, making the next raid cater to Paladin is not what I want to happen. I want Paladin and Dark Knight to just both work properly. The change I suggested to DRK and parry would increase their parry rate with DA substantially so Reprisal should be a reliable enough form of mitigation for physical tank busters. I don't know if it would be enough to be honest, but I'm sure it's a good change and it's hard to judge if more is needed or not until another raid drops.

I would honestly be extremely angry if the next raid had a Flatten mechanic every 30 seconds that just wrecked DRK and was perfect for PLD and they didn't bother to fix the tanks at all.

Please look forward to it.

Though in all honesty, if the next alexander series has a tank buster every 30-50 seconds that's physical, they better make tome gear equip across all classes so the paladin can swap to dark knight when the final Alexander raid series is magical again.