How do you deal with sluggish tanks?

[Akei]

Your opinion, ....

Well I did say in my post that I, like most tanks, will use the first pull as a measure of what the group can handle. Also lets be fair, the way dungeons are structured your generally looking at 2-3 *pulls* between each boss due to gating. Neverreap - First island is generally 1 pull. Thats my guage. Slow kill I'll split the second island into 2 pulls, good rate next island is a single pull etc. I'm not arguing that there are not tanks out there that try to split pulls as small as possible. Hell I read a thread the other day about a tank who single pulled the trash in Fractal /boggle.

For a tank to pull that small there really has to be a reason. Not comfortable with the instance. Not comfortable on the class. Dubious of other party members (Healer / DPS) Communication is key here. Ask the tank why they are pulling light. If they have a reasonable answer, *I'm new here* you can either deal with it and talk to them about the pace or leave. As I said in my post, Healers who DPS I love, but I never expect it going into a DF. Unfortunatly you will get new tanks or fearful tanks in DF. I'm just saying that with an experienced tank, pace is a group effort and not something a tank alone can control. I've been in many DF groups that run 20-25 mins and just muttered to myself about DPS not pushing hard enough. Its DF though you take your lumps. I'll pull as fast as the group can handle, I love sub-20 min clears. However in DF I generally find my clear time is around the 22 min mark .. and the DPS run sub 800 over all DPS numbers, which is tragic with the amount of AoE that can be done on trash. (Yes I'm talking about SMN and BLM too here )


Your point seems to be that in a capable group that's pushing high DPS and killing fast, the tank can hold up progress by adding wait time between packs. Yup that can happen, probably because of one of the reasons I've covered, maby the tank is new and is'ent confident with the instance and wants X CD up before he pulls again. There's alot of reasons a tank would be slow.

Bottom line, if the tank is waiting between packs the best way to deal with that is to talk to him/her. Pulling ahead wont work for a tank who's already on edge because they are new. Tanks tend to get alot of heat when they mess up, it tends to make new tanks alot more cautious, talk to them, encourage them to push harder and reassure them that your not gonna go apeshit if there is a problem and a wipe. Hell its how tanks get better, some personality types wont deal well with you pushing them without at least some encouragement and reassurance that a death / wipe is not the end of the world.

I've played tanks since DAOC back in 2004 (I was a Druid in EQ O_o) so I'm comfortable with the role, and I tend to join games with friends, friends who dont mind my pushing to limits and getting them killed a fair bit to learn those limits. Not everyone is as lucky and I would imagine that leveling a tank through DF alone with random people all the time can be very daunting for newer players. A bit of communication and compassion goes along way to ease the tank queue and get more tanks in there.

So *how do you deal with sluggish tanks* .... HELP THEM. (Yes I do queue as DPS at times, and I do practice what I preach ... I help them !!)

[NovaWulfe]

"Hey, if both the tank and healer feel comfortable with it, could we try bigger pulls?"

Works 95% of the time for me.

[Archaell]

You deal with sluggish tanks by playing one yourself - that way you are also helping to decrease queue times.

For the "bigger pulls", both on my healer and tank, I do not like the idea of bigger pulls - in PUGs. Why should one risk wipe, when you can have nice smooth run and let healer dps without getting heart attack? Now, I do suck it up, if the healer asks, even if its my first run of the instance, but in my opinion it isn't worth the stress. Tank's job is to tank without losing enmity, which can get quite difficult just by gear/level difference alone, without adding "bigger" pulls on the list.

[Disc]

I just pull extra garbage if they won't. I mean what's he gonna do? Tank it?

[Kaisersoke]

At this point, whether youre new or not, youve dealt with level 50 dungeons and large trash pulls, and you should most certainly know your job, so I cant imagine anyone actually using "im new" as an excuse to slow the pace for three people who are capable, but thats just my opinion. all those large pulls are 100% handleable at lower ilvls, and no tank that knows their job will lose aggro. in a game like WoW, there are plenty of other incentives for doing those dungeons to justify slower runs, but in a game like ffxiv, where the ONLY reason people queue is to get their tomes asap and leave, there isnt enough incentive for people to want to spend 10 extra minutes for a tank that wanted to move at a turtle-esque pace. Personally if im not happy with the tanks pace, ill just flat out leave without saying a word because this game is not rewarding enough for me to spend that much extra time in those places because one person is uncomfortable with a quick pace. we're nearly 5 (i think?) months into the expac, and people have done the experts hundred and hundreds of times, to the point where theyre sick of it. The only way people are going to WANT to help new tanks like that is for more rewards, and as is, a few extra tomes of law, we have nothing to spend them on, and for eso, we were going to cap easily by doing our roullete anyway, nobody wants to deal with the slow tank.

i dont mind new tanks. i tank myself sometimes, and i understand that its sometimes daunting and intimidating, but its just about efficiency, and id rather just leave, log out, and go spend some time doing something i enjoy rather than running a dungeon i dont really wanna do and spending extra time in it because the tank didnt feel comfortable with month old content that is extremely easy, i mean really. these new experts are brain meltingly boring, with boring boss mechanics and artificial gating to stop things from turning into 2.0 WP. they arent rewarding enough or fun enough to want to crawl through them

[Fevelle]

I just pull extra garbage if they won't. I mean what's he gonna do? Tank it?

You're probably going to die if you do it on a party with me healing and will get kicked afterwards. DPS are quite dispendable, y'know.

[Malevicton]

You're probably going to die if you do it on a party with me healing and will get kicked afterwards. DPS are quite dispendable, y'know.

Everyone's pretty expendable. Who's harder to replace is a pretty weak reason to kick or not kick someone though.

Kinda tired of the tanks-and-healers-call-the-shots-because-q-times rhetoric. If the only way you can justify your importance is because you're better than an empty spot, then you can try harder.

[Disc]

You're probably going to die if you do it on a party with me healing and will get kicked afterwards. DPS are quite dispendable, y'know.

And that should bother me why? I dodge a bad party & lockout, looking at ~5 minutes for my next queue. Meanwhile you get a weaker DPS who probably doesn't even have access to raid gear.

[Archaell]

And that should bother me why? I dodge a bad party & lockout, looking at ~5 minutes for my next queue. Meanwhile you get a weaker DPS who probably doesn't even have access to raid gear.

It seems like kicking you makes everybody happy then. Sluggish tanks prefer dps that are able to follow numbers and without the raid gear their job gets even easier. Win-win situation.

[Akei]

While we are 5 mo's into the expansion, that does not mean there are not new players in dungeons. New to class or new to that dungeon. The whole *We're x months into this everyone should know it* is not valid IMO b/c there are ALWAYS new people. A little bit of compassion goes along way. In full disclosure I do play a DPS daily in dungeon runs as well as my tank, I play my wifes SMN for her daily ESO's b/c shes tired of the game and taking a break atm, its 1 dungeon a day but I do come across all types of tank and I encourage and help where I can. I've been asked to *reign in* DPS on her on more than one occasion with a new tank and sure the run took a little longer but whats 5 mins in the long run? (Her SMN is around 198ilevel) Never did I consider just bailing b/c the tank was a little slow.

In the same vein I've yet to kick a DPS when I am tanking. I've had some pretty terrible DPS (Sub 300) but as long as they are moving and trying I'm fine with that. Do I sigh a little b/c the run takes longer? Sure. If I see them using terrible rotations (BLM FI x5 B1 x5 rotation?) I'll try to throw out some advice as we move along, if its taken great, they ignore me fine ... I'm outta here in 20 mins anyway. (I have sat at the end of a lower level dungeon before talking to another player on more than one occasion helping them understand rotation, they engaged in conversation and asked for help though, ask and I'm willing to chat. Other than that I'll just try to throw a few pointers at them as we run)

If others run ahead and pull .. I'll just pick that crap up and tank it. Like I care. I do agree with some posters here who feel that some people take a holier than thou attitude and try to *teach lessons* by letting people die. I dont get that crap .. slow down the run more? Why? Tbh its very seldom an issue since I move at a quick pace and generally pull large. If I'm sat waiting at a boss for a healer to regain a little mana and the DPS pulls, I'll tank it, point out why I was waiting and let the healer take it up with the DPS.

While I disagree with the attitude that everyone should know this crap by now, I do agree that we want to get through it as quickly and painlessly as possible. In that respect helping people along, not waiting for replacements (kicking people) and not arguing pointless crap (You pulled you tank) would be the best way to achieve that IMO.

<Saying all that I'm not opposed to kicking trolls / disruptive players, if your *trying* no matter how badly, I will never kick you from a DF dungeon>