NO MORE ALEXANDER(NM)!

[Jonditaru]

Almost in every single RPG, almost game, there is content after the end of the story. Usually this content is harder than the actually game itself. Most of the time, this content unlocks new skills, the best gear, more lore, and sometimes the true ending of the game. Most of the time, the average player is gonna to fail HARD. These players will either give up on it or get better. Now you don't see those players who gave up complaining about how they couldn't beat the endgame content and how the devs shouldn't put content that they, themselves, couldn't reach. However, according to your logic, since they paid for the game they should have full access to the game.

I don't know what RPGs you've been playing, but the only one I can recall that did this was FFXIII which was horribly linear. All RPGs from SNES to now have had everything available to you when conditions were right. IE; nearing the end of the game or getting an airship or some form of travel. You could point out Chrono Trigger, but that's an exception. Mainly cause there were different decisions you could make throughout the game to determine the ending, not to mention with new game+, skipping to Lavos as soon as you reach the end of time.

For arguement sake, the only thing anyone outside of the hardcore raiding community wants from these raids are the storyline. Obviously people should be rewarded for downing the hardest content in the game, but with such a story driven name that is Final Fantasy, most players want to immerse themselves in the story. Whether it be MSQ or side quest storylines. Coil is a good example of how, at the time, it screwed people. It is heavily tied to 1.0 and a lot of legacy players were discouraged to find out that a storyline, in which one of the main characters(who is still mention throughout all of MSQ) has a side story, was locked behind the hardcore raid content.

[Nadirah]

I think a better solution is what happened in WoW with LFR.

Just introduce the normal mode shortly after the savage version, (say, a couple of weeks after, basically a reverse of the order it came out this time). For 2 reasons;
1.) Those who really want to experience the story first, will have extra motivation to do so.
2.) Gear in the Normal Mode won't be needed for early progression in the Savage version. As any possible/reasonably-possible ilevel increase you can get, is expected to be earned for any serious raiding static.

That would have required them to make Savage doable in 180 gear.

it wasn't designed for 180 as it is.

[Ercapote]

NM gives item level 210 gear? News to me.

Raiding is always about and should always be about the social experience above all though. As stated to the person above, clearing difficult content with friends is just tops. But if you don't care for the social experience of raiding or the gear, then the content may just not be for you and you should be happy a story mode exists.

why is so hard for you people to read?

1.social experience you get it everywhere you can get it even in NM in ex roulette in whatever the hell you want as long as your are playing MMO you are constantly playing with the social experience so IDK where are you coming with this, coils are not made for a group of friend once gear get's up anyone will PF any group for savage...

2. there's only 2 reason why u get gear
1- stats
2- glamour/looks
let's put this.... I have the same exact gear that looks exactly the same as the HARDCORE mode of the raid....what's left for the "reward" gear from the hardcore? stats? Cool let me bust my ass on a super high difficulty lvl raid to get gear that will replaced next patch because guess what, we will have 210 from the island and we will be able to upgrade our ESO to 210 with the new 24 man raid. so what's left? glamour? but wait I already have it

so my only motivation to do savage is a small chance to get a flying mount? is that all the reason I will spend my time, patient, dedication and money? a flying mount?

[Aarik]

Also whole game is one huge content for casuals - crafts, dungeons, 24man raids, primals (extremes too), Golden Saucer and PvP.

Sorry, I could have swore you said crafting was for casuals these days. You haven't been crafting lately have you? If you did, you would have a clue as to just how agonizing obtaining the new pieces is, especially the blue-crafted master pieces. The only casual part of crafting right now is getting to 60. After that you cry. Oh, and did I mention that once you get your stupidly-agonizing pieces....congrats, there's no use for them! The stuff you can craft SUCKS compared to esoterics AND non-savage Alexander gear.

[Kinseykinz]

Just by comparing world 1st groups and their completion of FCoB and Savage alex, you would know that these raid tiers are far from the same. It did not take nearly as long for t13 to go down the 1st time as it did a4s.

True, but it DID take about as long for T5 to go down (legit), as it did A4S....and once SE saw the clear video, Twisters got an overhaul b/c even SE realized 'that isn't working right'

The real issue, with Savage currently, as I said before, has little to do with 'Normal Mode' existing. Savage is boring (overall) mechanically speaking, and way too similar to normal mode...only it feels like you're naked gear wise. Sure, there's plenty of need for 'perfect' play in savage....but it's not creative play. Alex Normal mode, it made sense for it to be a bit vanilla...but hell, Crystal Tower has more inventive mechanics/differences (and that was designed for casual groups/strangers).

If you really asked most people who have raided prior in this game, why all the sudden Savage 'isn't worth it' you'll find is most people just don't like THIS style of 'endgame'...because THIS raid is poorly crafted. ....and in some respects, too parallel to things we've seen before, only tuned above and beyond what our gear levels at this point should logically handle...especially if you don't do 'alt farming' of turns for drops.


Just as an example of the difference between the 'successful' Binding Coil raids vs. Alex Savage.
Binding Coil 1. vs Savage 1

T1:
ADS= 'So you think you can handle this?' Gatekeeper. Required some actual skilled play w/ Silence rotations/dodges/heals/both tanks had roles all while being a DPS check.

Some Trash to kill, but even these mobs had a couple little quirks/there were chests to chase if you wanted to.

Cad.
It's been a LONG time since I had to do this 'the legit way' But the room itself added a dynamic with the glowing floors+you had the adds and feeding to work with/their mechanic (they could blow up), then you had the split snake/even dps burn mechanic to do. Heals were challenged because overtime, the snakes hit harder/party members did take poison and other damage. Tanks had to mitigate properly/hold hate/pull properly/feed (if your OT was the feeder), and dps had to still burn to avoid the tanks getting too many stacks while killing both mobs within a certain small window of time. Now as groups got better geared, they could start skipping mechanics etc in this battle, but in the beginning, you HAD to feed (at least sometimes), you had to split to kill etc.

AS1
First off, before even breaking it down, it's very similar to T1....only, in many ways, less original and less fun.

Faust: Straight up DPS check. Tank(s) hold Boss (or boss+mobs depending on your strat), and everyone and their mamma blows their load on them. Tanks and healers ALSO need to dps as much as possible, while fully mitigating/healing. No real gimmick/no real skill check...just a solid 'do you know your role well enough/geared enough to dps this thing' Faust could be a training dummy for all it really matters gameplay style wise.

Opressors:
Okay, so this gets a little more complex than Faust....in that there's a lot of 'do it right or die' mechanics in this fight. But they aren't inventive or hard mechanics. They just happened to be clustered up and happen at almost the same time. This fight also puts an unfair amount of the pressure on the healers vs. other members of the party (which is ALSO an alex raid theme). Add to that, rng on prey can make the mechanic easier or harder to deal with any given phase cycle, and you have yourself a cluster. But, it's not technically a HARD fight, it's quite repetitive actually. It's just having the RNG work in your favor+ the fact that it's likely tuned for a gear score many teams don't have even when they can burn Faust, and it can be a deathtrap. But mechanic's wise, for most team members, it's not hard.

Also, both these bosses, seem like rehashes of T1

As you compare the next Floors/original BC turns, you'll find, most of the Binding coil 1 stuff was more creative/inspired than what Alex Savage offers. Now notice, I didn't bring up story, or gear or anything of the sort as to why people participated in BC more than this raid. People LIKED binding coil more because it felt more inventive/less 'dps racy all the time' I mean it HAD genuine DPS checks, but they were checks, and not 'push down the accelerator and never let up no matter what ever!' dps checks.

All this leads to people going 'why bother?' Much of it lies in 'it's not fun' and less in 'there's no point' ...if it was FUN, there'd be a point. Because it DOES still drop the best gear/have a unique mount etc. But many people don't every really like Normal Alex's battles/design, why would they want to do the same thing...only tuned for gear scores many don't possess yet. I also think a LOT of people can see this 'Savage' for what it is...poorly scaled content.

Personally, I WAS in a static....but there are like 4000 other things I'd rather do in this game, let alone in my personal life, then farm this bland content. Low-manning ex primals/binding coil, as an example is SOOOO much more fun and rewarding, and can be every bit as much of a challenge.

So no, Normal Mode isn't the problem....the actual design of Savage mode is.

PS: I'd also like to point out, if you Solo-queue DF Normal mode, depending on the box of chocolates you get, you could be working every bit as hard, if not harder than any savage raid group under the sun for your clear(esp if you are successful and counteract the inevitable wipe)....cause, the epic fail of some people knows no bounds. (mostly being funny with this...mostly).

[hagare]

read just a little harder I couldn't give less than 2 f$%@ if the gear is dyable or not, what I'm talking about is that everyone has the gear we are being "rewarded" with from the highest content that looks exactly the same of the cheap easy version... It's not as rewarding since stat wise, will be replace in the few patches and glamour wise you can easily get it from the easy version, so what's the point of having that gear?

So what if you couldn't give less than 2 f$%@ if the gear is dyable or not.
It's still a better gear from the stats so it's better for progression in savage.
it's better for glamour because it's dyeable unlike the normal version.
will be replace in the few patches? it's been the best gear for a few months now, and it will still be the best until 3.1 which is still more than a month away!
Do you want it to last forever? Gear gets replaced, this is how it is with vertical progression MMOs!
Were you this salty when NQ HW gear replaced coil gear?
And right now savage is the only place where you can get the mount, which compared to gear will last forever.
And the Devs did say that savage is for those who want a challenge.
Those are all reasons to do savage. gear(glamour + stats), mount, and the challenge.
so if those aren't enough for you, well them's the breaks.

[Greven]

Alexander NM/Savage exists cause people asked for it and the story behind it was the main issue so no lore/story isn't an option to motivate you through it.

Savage is for the glory, the challenge and if you didn't notice you get 210ilv gear there, which are the higher in game, other than that it's the only possibility to dye not only the NM gear but the Eso as well. The weapons drop only in the Savage too.

Thos then is just my opinion but everything happened fast due to HW being newborn. Once the main activities are out I bet the gear progress will slow down a bit and you'll have more than 3 months, maybe 6?, to show off your epeen before someone could get something better than you.

[Moonleg]

before you start reading: Since I realized with this threat that people can read but not understand what they are reading at the same time here is a few things before anyone decides to go all out without understanding this thread This is not about gating Story to anyone nor is to eliminate NM or something alike. It is about making SAVAGE desirable.

You get a unique mount. You get higher ilevel gear. You get gear that can be dyed to stand out better. You get bragging rights about being in the top very few percent of the playerbase.

Is that not ENOUGH?

[Sapphic]

True, but it DID take about as long for T5 to go down (legit), as it did A4S....and once SE saw the clear video, Twisters got an overhaul b/c even SE realized 'that isn't working right'

SE blocked access to turn 5 for a while to fix exploits some had used to clear it before which slowed down progression in there, otherwise it would have been cleared quicker than it was. It wasn't difficulty that slowed progression there it was the simple fact you could not go there.

[Kajukai]

let's put this.... I have the same exact gear that looks exactly the same as the HARDCORE mode of the raid....what's left for the "reward" gear from the hardcore? stats? Cool let me bust my ass on a super high difficulty lvl raid to get gear that will replaced next patch because guess what, we will have 210 from the island and we will be able to upgrade our ESO to 210 with the new 24 man raid. so what's left? glamour? but wait I already have it

so my only motivation to do savage is a small chance to get a flying mount? is that all the reason I will spend my time, patient, dedication and money? a flying mount?

You won't be able to upgrade armor and weapon for quite some time and the island thingy is much rng based irrc