Were we in the right to kick?

[Cynfael]

at least care about doing as much damage as possible.

You mean that they care about doing as much damage as possible to the single mob that they are focusing on, regardless of whether or not the sudden knockback will risk interrupting other players' casts or push the target out of range of any AoEs that happen to be firing at that moment.

Random knockback is incredibly inefficient and aggravating on a road-rage level. There is no argument that justifies a knockback skill's use in a rotation except on enemies that are immune to it.

[Februs]

Unskilled play should never, ever be a legitimate reason for removal from a public group. Its better that the group just disband.

Gonna have to disagree with you on this one. For one, It's easy to say that it's better for the group to disband when you're a tank and your ques are instant. The Drg probably waited 15 minutes to an hour for that que. Just based on que times alone, no. It is not better to disband when 3 out of 4 players are fine and one is harassing the group.

Two, if it were better to just disband the group instead of boot the player, progression parties would be utterly screwed when raiding. It might not be a big deal in regular dungeons or old content, but could you imagine if everyone just disbanded 8 man raids because 1 player wasn't doing their job right? No one would ever clear anything.

[Februs]

You mean that they care about doing as much damage as possible to the single mob that they are focusing on, regardless of whether or not the sudden knockback will risk interrupting other players' casts or push the target out of range of any AoEs that happen to be firing at that moment.

Agreed. Dps should be focusing on Maximum Dps output. That includes group utility. Inefficiently using knockbacks actually means the Dps are reducing the overall dmg, not doing the most dmg possible. Further, I'm not positive on this, since I don't have a Mch, but I'm pretty sure the knockback is not required for a mch to maximize their personal Dps output.

[Scalizor]

If the knockback is THAT much of a problem, 200 dungeon runs and I have yet to find a mob that'll fly off when I Blank, then the tank should probably learn how to position mobs so that they either don't move, like against a wall. A MCH not using Blank is as bad as a DRG not using Jump or a MNK not using Dragon Kick. Why else would we be given a damaging ability if we can't use it to damage enemies? Common sense man...

Or maybe you should be the one using Blank properly instead of blaming the tank for not doing extra work to allow you to put some extra little damage to your rotation. I mean, it's 100 damage for a 30-sec cooldown. That should tell you that it's meant to be used as an utility skill.

[ColdestHeaven]

Listen. Your 100 potency knockback may cost people way more than such a puny damage. Like, people using a skill on it (you know, skills dealing MORE damage than a freakin autoattack) but the enemy flies at the very last moment and you make it rewind, messing up their rotation or putting mob away from AoE fields or tank AoE spam. Same with casters, except you notice immediately that your cast got canceled instead of just getting a message "out of your range". Don't you even compare it Jump or Dragon kick, those are two completely different skill and neither of them mess with other people - unless you use Jump to pull, which earns you a one-way trip to hell.

DPS in this game is not tied to a single person, but to the entire group. Using knockback on not-immune enemies on cooldown because "muh DPS" is not only selfish, but fundamentally wrong.

As for the OP - MCH was being annoying on purpose and far from cooperative, DRG had the right to complain. Refusing to clear the dungeon if the MCH was not kicked, on the other hand, may prove to be a little extreme.

[RiceisNice]

If the knockback is THAT much of a problem, 200 dungeon runs and I have yet to find a mob that'll fly off when I Blank, then the tank should probably learn how to position mobs so that they either don't move, like against a wall. A MCH not using Blank is as bad as a DRG not using Jump or a MNK not using Dragon Kick. Why else would we be given a damaging ability if we can't use it to damage enemies? Common sense man...

The common sense should be directed to you if you're trying to compare jump or even dragon kick to blank. The two latter skills does not affect the positioning of the mob that can potentially get in the way of your party. Now if the mob itself was immune to knockback, then sure, it's free damage that you shouldn't be skipping out on.

You also should take into the cosnideration on the MCH whose using it. As much as teh tank can do to position the mob that it's ideal to push em into the wall, the MCH could still disregard that and use it in a rather disruptive manner. The matter of fact is, the MCH in OP's group was probably using it in a very terrible manner that it required them to tell him to stop using it.

It's not black and white whether or not the use of blank is a good idea, it's how you use it. And it falls much more onto the MCH to use it properly rather than the tank to position the mobs properly for it (which can also get in the way of melee dps just to cater to a MCH dps)

[Februs]

. As much as the tank can do to position the mob that it's ideal to push em into the wall, the MCH could still disregard that and use it in a rather disruptive manner.

Even this doesn't make sense, and this Thunda Cat person seems to have no idea what they're talking about.

For one, this person is asking the tank to go out of their way to re-position mobs so that knockback won't be an issue. So, they want the tank to take extra time to kite around the enemy before the Dps get to work... This would be a mess in so many ways it's not even funny. I've never met a Dps that doesn't instantly attack my mobs the second I have aggro, so wasting enmity time kiting them around is basically asking for the tank to lose aggro, especially to ranged Dps. Also, some mobs cannot be positioned properly. Consider ranged mobs that require a drag pull. Tanks can get them to clump together easily enough by having them chase for a bit (a drag pull), but trying to wedge them against a wall is impossible without having a knockback skill of their own. Even if it were possible for tanks to push every mob against a wall, if they did that they would be severely limiting the dps of melee classes.

Drg's and Mnks are position dependent. Some of those positions are the at the rear of the opponent. How does this person expect a Drg to complete their dmg bonus on the Impulse Drive combo (which has is far stronger than the potency of Blank) without being able to actually get to the targets rear? It wouldn't be possible. Depending on the shape of the wall they're being pushed against, even flank bonuses would be difficult to get.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Even this doesn't make sense, and this Thunda Cat person seems to have no idea what they're talking about.

./sigh. Let's assume that every mob in heavensward can be knocked back, which goes counter to the experience that I've seen, but alright. Sure, if the melee DPS here isn't slacking off, using Blank is a DPS loss. Get a 1-2-3 DRG or MNK or whatever that isn't even playing their class properly? Yeah, sorry, if I have to carry a lazy DPS, I'm using Blank off cooldown.

Now, for any actual relevant content, Knockbacks are not capable of moving the target, so they won't do jack shit for other DPS. Assuming your keeping Hot Shot up and using Gauss Barrel intelligently, which if you're a half decent Machinist, you SHOULD, Blank's overall potency increases to 135. Over a 10 minute fight, using Blank on cool down, with no other buffs up, is around 2700 DPS, assuming you get no crits, and have Gauss Barrel up for each one. In addition, starting from your first Blank, every third Blank afterwards should be boosted by Blood for Blood and Hawk's Eye for more damage. You with me so far? Now with Wildfire up, both Blank's damage on hit, which lines up with Hawk's Eye and Blood for Blood will be compiled with the rest of Wildfire's damage, for more 'bang' for your buck. This isn't including Raging Strikes, which is up every 3 minutes, and will increase Blank's damage further, which will also be compiled higher into Wildfire.

But. Sure. Let's assume Blank's a DPS loss on an immovable target. By that same logic, Jump, Leg Sweep, Blunt Arrow, and every other oGCD attack is a DPS loss as well!
#getridofocds

[Malevicton]

People said like a million times that it's fine on mobs that are immune...

How does being immovable have anything to do with other ogcd moves?

if the melee DPS here isn't slacking off, using Blank is a DPS loss.

^This is all you should have said.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

People said like a million times that it's fine on mobs that are immune...

How does being immovable have anything to do with other ogcd moves?



^This is all you should have said.

I assumed people could understand the unspoken qualifier. As for the other ocd moves, I was just being melodramatic to show the polar logical extreme.