Were we in the right to kick?

[rhett]

I just ran Aurum Vale as WAR in DF and, as you know, it's a damn nightmare, mostly if you're trying to pull small groups instead of lol-pulling the whole room. Besides a rough patch in the beginning (that I admit was 100% my fault), things were going...fine. Our DRG would occasionally sound off at the MCH to stop pushing enemies because it annoyed them and MCH simply said they were playing their class and that if annoyed DRG so much, they should just target other enemies. This happened about 3-4 times.

It comes to a point where DRG says they're not gonna go on if MCH doesn't stop pushing enemies, points out that this is a group and not solo, etc. Even the healer spoke up about how the MCH should follow group rules. The MCH argued with them for a second and then DRG told me to kick the MCH, which I was hesitant about because the pushing didn't occur to me as that much of a problem but the others were clearly upset. I started typing up something to MCH about how I was sorry but I wanted to finish the dungeon and if both DPS weren't cooperating, there was a small chance of that happening, so I had to kick them.

While I'm typing, MCH sprints ahead, pulls the entire next room, and brings them back to us. Chaos ensues, we make it out by the skin of our teeth, MCH is kicked in the aftermath, and us remaining 3 took Miser's Mistress, no problem.

Pulling a room full of enemies back to us was a serious dick move and was the only discrepancy I had with MCH. I wasn't upset about the pushing--in all honesty, that was a very, very small issue in the myriad of shortcomings we had in that run. Was it right of us to kick MCH, massive pull (in reaction to being told they would be kicked) aside?

[AriaEnia]

What are you talking about, people now entitled to kick people whose dps don't meet their expectation, especially parser people, without remorse at all, even though there isn't option "low dps" in the vote kick. Your case is worse, yeah the MCH was the troublemaker, you were right to kick the MCH.

[Souljacker]

What are you talking about, people now entitled to kick people whose dps don't meet their expectation, especially parser people, without remorse at all, even though there isn't option "low dps" in the vote kick. Your case is worse, yeah the MCH was the troublemaker, you were right to kick the MCH.

Sigh. Put the shoe on the other foot. I was in a dungeon in what we will call some other game, and there was another DPS there who was doing 1/3 the damage I was.

One Third.

Mind, I was by no means in the upper crust of DPS either, so this was particularly bad, as in not even TRYING to do a correct rotation. The sad part was, the player was geared in token gear with many upgrades, and some higher token gear pieces. This player also executed every mechanic properly, so he/she was neither new to the encounter nor new to the class.

So I didn't say anything but that dungeon still went wayyyy slower than it needed to. That's someone being carried and trolling other players who are doing their best to play their classes. Why shouldn't that kind of player be removed from a group? Why should that player get to be carried by the OTHER players in the group? In this game I wouldn't even be able to TELL that person they were underperforming because then it's harassment and I would be banned for even having a tool that let me know that person was so deeply underperforming. (As an aside, I wouldn't have been a jerk about it, either.)


Folks exaggerate how often people are kicked for low dps. A couple hundred dps here and there - unless you are on bleeding edge progression (in which case you agreed to let your raid leader do whatever they want to anyway) - you aren't getting kicked.

One third the damage of another, average DPS? Come on. That's why we need parsers. THAT player.

[Alistaire]

One third the damage of another, average DPS? Come on. That's why we need parsers. THAT player.

So much this.

Although, with the advent of Wanderer's Minuet, I've noticed more and more bad dps based on their cast bars. It'd be nice if they could implement a way to show someone's moves that way, via a cast bar, even for immediate moves. Without Wanderer's I'd have never noticed 1 particular bard in a A3 normal run who repeatedly did Venomous Bite 3x in a row in phases with just the 1 target. He ended up kicked of course, but it'd be nice if we could tell who "THAT" player is without a parser and without relying on them being a job with cast bars. Just a thought.

[Yaichiro]

The DRG was right about the knock back. It's unnecessary and makes the things more difficult which hinders the whole group. knocking back is a defensive skill which should be used only at certain situations.

The MCH was not playing according to his job but he was just mindlessly using all skills available to him. For instance, a healer can over heal and take aggro who will say I am playing my job!

If he pulled the whole room you should have let him die like a poor fly and waited for everything to reset by not attacking any of the monsters.

[Shirobi]

Unskilled play should never, ever be a legitimate reason for removal from a public group. Its better that the group just disband.

[Cynfael]

Unskilled play should never, ever be a legitimate reason for removal from a public group. Its better that the group just disband.

Can't be serious. If anyone can successfully argue that one player's choice to antagonize and hinder the group should be upheld at the expense of everyone else's enjoyment, I'd love to hear this miraculous argument.

The replies in this thread that seem to support the MCH's "right" to be a gigantic pain in the ass concern me. If a player is disruptive, is challenged on their disruptive behavior, and refuses to correct it, it's difficult to fault the group for not wanting that player to stay. Seems quite simple.

[Februs]

Unskilled play should never, ever be a legitimate reason for removal from a public group. Its better that the group just disband.

Gonna have to disagree with you on this one. For one, It's easy to say that it's better for the group to disband when you're a tank and your ques are instant. The Drg probably waited 15 minutes to an hour for that que. Just based on que times alone, no. It is not better to disband when 3 out of 4 players are fine and one is harassing the group.

Two, if it were better to just disband the group instead of boot the player, progression parties would be utterly screwed when raiding. It might not be a big deal in regular dungeons or old content, but could you imagine if everyone just disbanded 8 man raids because 1 player wasn't doing their job right? No one would ever clear anything.

[Pence]

Both were in the wrong. The DRG would have been my first 'consideration' to kick. The MCH was right that the DRG could switch targets for a few seconds.

But the MCH reacting the way he did justified his kick.

[Metalwrath]

You were right to kick the mech.They shouldn't be spamming knockbacks on targets.'You can target other enemies' is not a valid excuse.Thats encouraging bad play.You should be focusing on a single target to make tanks job easier.By encouraging the idea of attacking multiple targets at once when it's not aoe skill based you are making the tank do more work to hold agro on more than one mob at a time.
By the sound of it though the Dragoon wasn't helping the situation though.More than likely by not asking the mech nicely and giving out to him instead probably encouraged the mech to knockback on purpose to annoy the Dragoon.