Were we in the right to kick?

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

And again, it lowers the group dps because people were in the middle of attacking it before you blasted it across the room. Get it? Got it? :P

Again (again) it's fluid aura etiquette. It doesn't even merit a new discussion.

If the knockback is THAT much of a problem, 200 dungeon runs and I have yet to find a mob that'll fly off when I Blank, then the tank should probably learn how to position mobs so that they either don't move, like against a wall. A MCH not using Blank is as bad as a DRG not using Jump or a MNK not using Dragon Kick. Why else would we be given a damaging ability if we can't use it to damage enemies? Common sense man...

[Scalizor]

If the knockback is THAT much of a problem, 200 dungeon runs and I have yet to find a mob that'll fly off when I Blank, then the tank should probably learn how to position mobs so that they either don't move, like against a wall. A MCH not using Blank is as bad as a DRG not using Jump or a MNK not using Dragon Kick. Why else would we be given a damaging ability if we can't use it to damage enemies? Common sense man...

Or maybe you should be the one using Blank properly instead of blaming the tank for not doing extra work to allow you to put some extra little damage to your rotation. I mean, it's 100 damage for a 30-sec cooldown. That should tell you that it's meant to be used as an utility skill.

[RiceisNice]

If the knockback is THAT much of a problem, 200 dungeon runs and I have yet to find a mob that'll fly off when I Blank, then the tank should probably learn how to position mobs so that they either don't move, like against a wall. A MCH not using Blank is as bad as a DRG not using Jump or a MNK not using Dragon Kick. Why else would we be given a damaging ability if we can't use it to damage enemies? Common sense man...

The common sense should be directed to you if you're trying to compare jump or even dragon kick to blank. The two latter skills does not affect the positioning of the mob that can potentially get in the way of your party. Now if the mob itself was immune to knockback, then sure, it's free damage that you shouldn't be skipping out on.

You also should take into the cosnideration on the MCH whose using it. As much as teh tank can do to position the mob that it's ideal to push em into the wall, the MCH could still disregard that and use it in a rather disruptive manner. The matter of fact is, the MCH in OP's group was probably using it in a very terrible manner that it required them to tell him to stop using it.

It's not black and white whether or not the use of blank is a good idea, it's how you use it. And it falls much more onto the MCH to use it properly rather than the tank to position the mobs properly for it (which can also get in the way of melee dps just to cater to a MCH dps)

[Februs]

. As much as the tank can do to position the mob that it's ideal to push em into the wall, the MCH could still disregard that and use it in a rather disruptive manner.

Even this doesn't make sense, and this Thunda Cat person seems to have no idea what they're talking about.

For one, this person is asking the tank to go out of their way to re-position mobs so that knockback won't be an issue. So, they want the tank to take extra time to kite around the enemy before the Dps get to work... This would be a mess in so many ways it's not even funny. I've never met a Dps that doesn't instantly attack my mobs the second I have aggro, so wasting enmity time kiting them around is basically asking for the tank to lose aggro, especially to ranged Dps. Also, some mobs cannot be positioned properly. Consider ranged mobs that require a drag pull. Tanks can get them to clump together easily enough by having them chase for a bit (a drag pull), but trying to wedge them against a wall is impossible without having a knockback skill of their own. Even if it were possible for tanks to push every mob against a wall, if they did that they would be severely limiting the dps of melee classes.

Drg's and Mnks are position dependent. Some of those positions are the at the rear of the opponent. How does this person expect a Drg to complete their dmg bonus on the Impulse Drive combo (which has is far stronger than the potency of Blank) without being able to actually get to the targets rear? It wouldn't be possible. Depending on the shape of the wall they're being pushed against, even flank bonuses would be difficult to get.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Even this doesn't make sense, and this Thunda Cat person seems to have no idea what they're talking about.

./sigh. Let's assume that every mob in heavensward can be knocked back, which goes counter to the experience that I've seen, but alright. Sure, if the melee DPS here isn't slacking off, using Blank is a DPS loss. Get a 1-2-3 DRG or MNK or whatever that isn't even playing their class properly? Yeah, sorry, if I have to carry a lazy DPS, I'm using Blank off cooldown.

Now, for any actual relevant content, Knockbacks are not capable of moving the target, so they won't do jack shit for other DPS. Assuming your keeping Hot Shot up and using Gauss Barrel intelligently, which if you're a half decent Machinist, you SHOULD, Blank's overall potency increases to 135. Over a 10 minute fight, using Blank on cool down, with no other buffs up, is around 2700 DPS, assuming you get no crits, and have Gauss Barrel up for each one. In addition, starting from your first Blank, every third Blank afterwards should be boosted by Blood for Blood and Hawk's Eye for more damage. You with me so far? Now with Wildfire up, both Blank's damage on hit, which lines up with Hawk's Eye and Blood for Blood will be compiled with the rest of Wildfire's damage, for more 'bang' for your buck. This isn't including Raging Strikes, which is up every 3 minutes, and will increase Blank's damage further, which will also be compiled higher into Wildfire.

But. Sure. Let's assume Blank's a DPS loss on an immovable target. By that same logic, Jump, Leg Sweep, Blunt Arrow, and every other oGCD attack is a DPS loss as well!
#getridofocds

[Malevicton]

People said like a million times that it's fine on mobs that are immune...

How does being immovable have anything to do with other ogcd moves?

if the melee DPS here isn't slacking off, using Blank is a DPS loss.

^This is all you should have said.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

People said like a million times that it's fine on mobs that are immune...

How does being immovable have anything to do with other ogcd moves?



^This is all you should have said.

I assumed people could understand the unspoken qualifier. As for the other ocd moves, I was just being melodramatic to show the polar logical extreme.

[RiceisNice]

But. Sure. Let's assume Blank's a DPS loss on an immovable target. By that same logic, Jump, Leg Sweep, Blunt Arrow, and every other oGCD attack is a DPS loss as well![/I]
#getridofocds

No one is arguing that, infact I even mentioned this. Nor was it even unspoken in this topic.

The common sense should be directed to you if you're trying to compare jump or even dragon kick to blank. The two latter skills does not affect the positioning of the mob that can potentially get in the way of your party. Now if the mob itself was immune to knockback, then sure, it's free damage that you shouldn't be skipping out on.
)

Random knockback is incredibly inefficient and aggravating on a road-rage level. There is no argument that justifies a knockback skill's use in a rotation except on enemies that are immune to it.

DPS in this game is not tied to a single person, but to the entire group. Using knockback on not-immune enemies on cooldown because "muh DPS" is not only selfish, but fundamentally wrong.

But that's not the context of the MCH in OP's statement when the former is using blank in a disruptive manner. A tank (or melee dps) should not be catering to the MCH using blank when the enemy can be knockedback; it should be the other way around because you getting your blank off is worth much much less dps than a melee getting a proper positional. And even then, you weren't arguing for that context either since you outright stated that the other tanks and DPS should play accordingly to you using blanks when again, they have much much more to lose than your 100 potency for missing a positional because you're misfiring the blanks.

And for the record, most non-giant dungeon mobs are not immune except for every single one in fracturnal (which frustrates me even more when all of the mobs except for a single one in neverreap can be knockedback)

And just to nitpick

As a tank? I've only ever lost one gcd to a mch using blank, if that. Even as a ninja or a monk I'd rather see the machinist using it since that means they at least care about doing as much damage as possible. What makes Fluid aura bad isn't the knockback on its own, but the knock back combined with bind, which prevents the mob from moving back into position.

So you, as a melee, would be perfectly fine with a MCH using blank to push your current (and only) target away from you, and cause you to miss your positional (which can be as high as +80 potency before buffs, on a class that has a stronger weapon damage than you) or skill in general (which can be extremely detrimental to DRG's BotD)

[Februs]

Words and stuff.

One, the fact that a Drg or Mnk are even worrying about their positional dmg bonuses means that they are actively trying to NOT be lazy, but that’s not the point. The point is that they could be the most active and committed player in the game and still lose positional dmg bonuses to knockbacks. As soon as their moves go off, if the target is turned or pushed, they lose bonus. There’s no getting it back. In regards to a Drg, this is even worse because of Blood of the Dragon.

Drg’s wheeling thrust or fang and claw moves are TIMED. They have one GCD to pop their 4th tier combo. If they don’t, or accidentally pop something else before using it, they lose it, which means losing time on your BotD buff. That’s a loss of a combo potency of 200 (290 with positional bonus) as well as 30% bonus on their jumps when BotD falls off. Apparently, that’s not important though.

To get to your so-called “relevant” content. You say that knockbacks can’t move targets… um, what? If they weren’t than this person’s thread would never have gone up in the first place. So, I’m not sure what kind of lunacy you’re talking about here. Some targets are immovable, sure, and on those targets people can feel free to throw up as many knocbacks as they can, but on the average mob it's a problem.

You do give us the numbers on Blank, though. That’s very helpful. It clears up so much misunderstanding. You say that Blank combo potency can increase up to 135, and that, during a 10 minute fight (which could only be a boss fight, and even then you’re going very, VERY, slow) it adds up to a dmg counter of 2700 Dps… Well hot damn. That’s astounding. I never knew that Blank was such a powerhouse.

In case you can’t read sarcasm, let’s put this in perspective. Heavy thrust has a potency of 100(+70) from flank. Chaos Thrust has 100(+50 from rear. A total of 250 with combo bonus and position bonus), with the full combo potency stacking up to 650 if executed correctly, using positional. Jump has a potency of 200 (300 when surged + 30% with BotD = 390). Spineshatter Drive has a potency of 170 (255 when surged + 30% = 332). Wheeling thrust and Fang and Claw both have a combo potency of 200 (+90) when positioned correctly, and none of those potency numbers reflect the dmg boost granted by Heavy thrust (a straight +15% on everything). In short, in case you’re not following the math here, Blank is the equivalent to a Drgoon’s fart. How you could even consider comparing Blank to any of these moves is beyond me. The only comparison that would even come close to making sense is leg sweep, but leg sweep (because the potency is the same), but even that move has advantage because it has 0 potential to interrupt or mess up anyone else’s combos or positional potency, because it doesn’t move the target. In fact, it actually ensures the target can’t move at all.

The fact that people are even trying to defend this move when it has such pitiful potency is mind blowing.

[Icebrand]

In short, in case you’re not following the math here, Blank is the equivalent to a Drgoon’s fart.

Don't forget the extra potency when used in conjunction with stuffed cabbage.