DF Penalty

[kazeandi]

Then you would get players intentionally wiping it over and over on the first pull.

I didn't go in with the intention to go out as fast as possible. I tried to beat the dungeon, especially because it's hard when the group is a random DF pick up group and some people are new. It can be done, I did it before, I can do it again. AV is nowhere near the level of, say, the Vault.
That being said, there's missing the mark by a small margin due to small mistakes or bad timing or generally something going wrong somewhere down the road in a fight - that's normal and part of the team experience.

But when you tell the DDs "when the boss faces you, he'll shoot a skill at you, so dodge and stay away from him because his swings have a huge range" - and I tell them to look where my fairy is because she's supposed to be at max range, since I position her that way and they STILL stand close enough to get hit by the boss, then the DPS department of your team can't be relied upon.

Then you tell the tank that when the boss casts a skill, he should just run through him and hit him once to auto turn, then run through his legs again after the skill is through, to face it away from the team - and the tank either just stands there or tries to evade the skill by running away or to the sides..

...then what's left?

We went through the fight 2 times with me explaining it, and in 2 languages.

The third fight, which I already announced to be my last try (because I had no hope left after the desaster I saw earlier), started with the tank running in as soon as he had Protect and before I had my fairy out.
I had planned to save Swiftcast to rez one of the suicide DPS or the tank in case he failed again, and SC really has a short timer, but the group went down faster than Paris Hilton.

Hopeless. So why do I have to pay the price?

[CUTS3R]

Then you would get players intentionally wiping it over and over on the first pull.

If you go that way then ok everything can be abused. Thats not reason to keep a flawed system in place.

Again Ill use OP story for this example:

His group was apparently terrible so he left. The other 3 players were the reason they werent killing that boss yet he left cause none of them had the decency to admit they weren't gonna make it and vote the abandon.
By leaving the OP took a penalty he didnt deserve at all and was probably seen as the "bad guy" by these 3 players an who knows they were probably butthurt enough to report him cause he bailed on them.

Is punishing the "innocent" players like the OP ok ? No its not, there is a need of a middle ground for this.

The idea i posted on my previous post is all i could come up with at the moment but im pretty sure a team of devs would come up with a better, polished, penalty system.

[kazeandi]

What pisses me off a bit is that I know that, since I'm a healer and can't die under any circumstances or we'll be in trouble, watch guides to new dungeons on Youtube, yet the tank, who's equally important, doesn't even consider following advice after the boss prove him wrong 2 times already.
Yea, the DPS messed up, too, but with a tank who knows what he's doing, we can just down that boss without DDs. I'm a Scholar, if I don't have to spamheal, I can put out decent DPS, too. And with only me on the aggro list, a tank can spam DPS moves.
Had that before, was doable. Took a bit longer but was no problem.

That's why I can't get over that tank and already kinda dismissed the DPS's fails.

[Kuroyasha]

Yeah well too bad I can't make my own group for Leveling roulette or else I would. Solo queue only.

The very least people could do is have common courtesy to vote abandon. The reality exists that there are groups that are basically ",no-win" groups. The odds that another healer would take my place and then manage to clear it is basically 0 in most cases

And that's assuming the group even stays there. That's the messed up part about it. Because I leave since the group refuses to abandon or kick, THEY CAN THEN LEAVE RIGHT AFTER ME WITH NO PENALTY EVEN THOUGH IT'S THEIR FAULT THAT THE DUNGEON RUN IS A FLOP IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Best healer of all time here folks

[CUTS3R]

What pisses me off a bit is that I know that, since I'm a healer and can't die under any circumstances or we'll be in trouble, watch guides to new dungeons on Youtube, yet the tank, who's equally important, doesn't even consider following advice after the boss prove him wrong 2 times already.

That's why I can't get over that tank and already kinda dismissed the DPS's fails.

Well, to be fair its because alot of Tanks feel entitled ( more than healers and DPS combined ) due to the fact that they are "leading" the way. They feel flawless and everyone else is wrong especially if you dare giving them advices.

That is another story though we better not start here, or the thread will derail into a massive clusterf*ck.

[Souljacker]

Then you would get players intentionally wiping it over and over on the first pull.

Only if you assume players are going into these dungeons for the express purpose of trolling. One or two might out of boredom, but you are always going to have those people who do xyz for the lulz. We're talking about a system that punishes the for real players who are trying to just get their roulette done.

If someone wants to troll your group and wipe over and over they are going to do it regardless of what I proposed. This idea that folks will go into dungeons and wipe left and right just so they can leave without a penalty and then sit in a 5-25 minute queue to do it all over again is frankly some of the most paranoid stuff I've ever heard. And how about this - add it to the current withdraw system. Do it twice in a row, you get locked out for an hour. That will still give people the ability to legitimately leave bad groups and minimize the trolling.

[RiceisNice]

...

Thats why there should be a middle ground of where you'd get no penalty if you leave 30 minutes into an instance (which even WoW does). It still won't address those special individuals who will actually wait off the 30 minutes without ever pulling just to bail of a dungeon, but that's a completely different circumstance and really should be reportable no questions asked.



The situations I bring up though, sadly are not made up and it's becoming increasingly more apparent (the tanks who feel that they shouldn't suffer doing stone vigil or thousand maws) when I go through the trouble of leveling up my other classes via DF. And in the case of wipings, there's no way to prove without reasonable doubt that the wipes were legit or not. I mean there's people who will wait the entire 90 minutes just to dodge a penalty just to spite people, this would not be out of the question for them. There's no control of this and we end up having an alternative for those individuals that love to queue for DF and decline the queue.

Between trying to make things more "fair" for every individual, the primary concern for me is people that are trying to circumvent their penalty for selfish reasons, and I could very well say the same thing for parties who cannot absolutely clear a 4 man dungeon (and I mean because they were legitmately bad, my experiences were groups who would purposely hold the entire party back), are a lot more scarce than people make it out to be. The matter of fact is, both sides of the scenarios are incredible outliers of an average group formation, but one of the two is purposely circumventing something that's placed into the game for otherwise its intended purposes (that is, getting a vote kick to dodge the penalty so they can immediately requeue.)

[raela]

I'm a Scholar, if I don't have to spamheal, I can put out decent DPS, too. And with only me on the aggro list, a tank can spam DPS moves.
Had that before, was doable. Took a bit longer but was no problem.

Whoa whoa whoa. Ok, I've had disaster parties there as a sch - plant your fairy's butt (I have stay and place on my bar) and kite him. You can kill coin counter. Dps when he's charging a skill.

Yeah, situation sucked. But if you thought the party could clear the rest of the dun, challenge yourself. If not? As least you didn't suffer to the end.

[Souljacker]

Snip

And I still argue that someone who wants out or to troll you is going to accomplish that by any means necessary regardless. They will purposely wipe the group to get you to kick him and then you are still in the situation you are trying to eliminate: you are down a player and that player is out of the group with no penalty. You said yourself there's no way to tell what's a legitimate wipe and what isn't, so it's no different than that player purposely wiping the group so you kick him. This wouldn't open the floodgates like you fear.

Again, these situations you are describing are a completely different (and obscure) issue that won't be solved until you fix players. Since we can't fix players, we have to make a system that's better for the good players instead of a system that is just slightly worse for the trolling ones. Ten bad guys go free rather than one innocent, yadda yadda and all that.

[Magistrella]

Now I'm sitting here with a 30 min penalty. Kept the pretty bad team alive during the instance up to boss number two, wiped 3 times with them, wasted one buff food and 45 minutes, so why do SE need to penalize me further?

And that's exactly the reason why people leave dungeons like AV immediately (and honestly - thats the only dungeon i run away screaming the instant i see it too and just bite the dust)- youll be done quicker when you get something else, even if you take the 30 min penalty right away most of the time.

Watch out for High Level Roulette especially when hitting Keeper of the Lake - had the tank quit instantly on me couple of times in the last weeks too :/