DF Penalty

[RiceisNice]

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It's mostly the tanks or healers that get this attitude because they have practically nothing to lose from bailing on a dungeon if they don't get a penalty to it, due to instant queues. DPS on the otherhand, are waiting for 25+ minutes to get their dungeon queue. If you were to allow them to leave without a penalty after dying a few times, what's stopping those individuals from purposely dying to trash pulls then calling it quits, and leaving the party stranded without a tank/healer. And in-progress tank/healers are a rarity unless you have someone in the FC/LS that's willing to come in; It's as good as abandoning the duty if you lose the tank/healer.

And there's been an increasing amount of these individuals from my experience, it's a lot more than I'd like to admit tbh even compared to the likes of WoW or a moba. I've actually had an encounter where someone couldn't vote kick because they had previously done it before in the same day for the same reason.

[Souljacker]

It's mostly the tanks or healers that get this attitude because they have practically nothing to lose from bailing on a dungeon if they don't get a penalty to it, due to instant queues. DPS on the otherhand, are waiting for 25+ minutes to get their dungeon queue. If you were to allow them to leave without a penalty after dying a few times, what's stopping those individuals from purposely dying to trash pulls then calling it quits, and leaving the party stranded without a tank/healer.

Nothing, but this is where I think again, people overestimate the actual number of trolls versus the actual number of people who need to get out of terrible groups. You're constructing these elaborate situations that aren't the norm. There's always going to be "that" dungeon that people don't want to do. Aurum Vale is "that" dungeon right now and even HAVING a penalty isn't stopping people from dropping right away. I was filtered into an in-progress one last week and they hadn't even done the first pull. As soon as more people were filtered, they dropped. Eventually the two of us left voted abandon and started over. So your logic falls short when folks already hate a dungeon enough to drop and eat a penalty.

For the troll concern about 'causing x wipes' - that's what vote kick is for. If you've got a healer not healing, you kick them. If you have a tank not tanking, you kick them. Neither eats a penalty in that situation, either, right? So what's the difference with letting someone leave a dungeon after the GROUP wipes x times and kicking them for behaving in a way you don't agree with? That player would have probably left quietly and not trolled the group for a vote kick. In either situation you are still down a player, but that could be solved by taking away the ridiculous option to choose whether we go in-progress or not. No other game has this option because they already HAD all these discussions a decade ago and came to the appropriate conclusion. It doesn't work. It leaves people begging FC to queue in progress. It makes a 'random' queue no longer quite so random.

Anyway, that's a whole different discussion. This change would help the OTHER 90% of people who don't want to wipe after wipe because the rest of the team doesn't gel well or doesn't care. I will never believe that someone should be FORCED to subject themselves to multiple wipes when other people can't get it together just because this community is so bent on making sure every aspect of the game has a punishment.

Remember, this isn't about removing the debuff. It's about making it a little more reasonable. 30 minutes is almost the entirety of the dungeon. With a competent group you'd be finished. With a group of bad players you could barely be at the first boss. Either way, you're already eating a penalty for wasting your time and queue time. Multiple wipes should trigger something in the code that says yep, there's an issue here and this player can leave *if they want to*. If they don't, then the discussion is moot anyway.

I think it would have the opposite effect you are worried about. If players know their tanks and healers aren't being forced to stay in a bad group, they will behave better and learn to freaking play.

[RiceisNice]

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Thats why there should be a middle ground of where you'd get no penalty if you leave 30 minutes into an instance (which even WoW does). It still won't address those special individuals who will actually wait off the 30 minutes without ever pulling just to bail of a dungeon, but that's a completely different circumstance and really should be reportable no questions asked.



The situations I bring up though, sadly are not made up and it's becoming increasingly more apparent (the tanks who feel that they shouldn't suffer doing stone vigil or thousand maws) when I go through the trouble of leveling up my other classes via DF. And in the case of wipings, there's no way to prove without reasonable doubt that the wipes were legit or not. I mean there's people who will wait the entire 90 minutes just to dodge a penalty just to spite people, this would not be out of the question for them. There's no control of this and we end up having an alternative for those individuals that love to queue for DF and decline the queue.

Between trying to make things more "fair" for every individual, the primary concern for me is people that are trying to circumvent their penalty for selfish reasons, and I could very well say the same thing for parties who cannot absolutely clear a 4 man dungeon (and I mean because they were legitmately bad, my experiences were groups who would purposely hold the entire party back), are a lot more scarce than people make it out to be. The matter of fact is, both sides of the scenarios are incredible outliers of an average group formation, but one of the two is purposely circumventing something that's placed into the game for otherwise its intended purposes (that is, getting a vote kick to dodge the penalty so they can immediately requeue.)

[Souljacker]

Snip

And I still argue that someone who wants out or to troll you is going to accomplish that by any means necessary regardless. They will purposely wipe the group to get you to kick him and then you are still in the situation you are trying to eliminate: you are down a player and that player is out of the group with no penalty. You said yourself there's no way to tell what's a legitimate wipe and what isn't, so it's no different than that player purposely wiping the group so you kick him. This wouldn't open the floodgates like you fear.

Again, these situations you are describing are a completely different (and obscure) issue that won't be solved until you fix players. Since we can't fix players, we have to make a system that's better for the good players instead of a system that is just slightly worse for the trolling ones. Ten bad guys go free rather than one innocent, yadda yadda and all that.

[RiceisNice]

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Which is why letting them leave without a penalty past a point in time (say 30 minutes in an instance) is a better alternative than straight up dying X amount of times. The latter allows for an individual for people to control whether or not they can stay because they don't like the dungeon simply by dying, but the worse of it is that it becomes hard to objectify that due to the circumstances beyond it (whether its legit or not). Said individual could just keep requeuing if their intent is just to mess with as many players as they like (much like declining a DF queue and they're the tank/healer role)

You can also keep saying my situations are completely different (and obscure) as much as I can say the same for bad players who hit a wall because I personally have not gotten a party who genuinely could not complete a duty. You should expect at least some form of time commitment when you want to party up with random people, not introduce penalty-free leaving that have loopholes (getting vote kicked or dying X amount of times). At least waiting for say 30 minutes to leave without a penalty (which is different from a 15 minute consensual abandon), it's extremely black and white on whether or not that 30 minute was spent afking or actually doing the duty.

Lets stop selling cars, you never know if a psychopath suddenly decides to run people over.
Lets stop living we're going to die anyway.
Lets stop.

Tat topic contribution though. You first.

[CUTS3R]

paranoia

Lets stop selling cars, you never know if a psychopath suddenly decides to run people over.
Lets stop living we're going to die anyway.
Lets stop.