More Horizontal Progression please

[karateorangutang]

snip

The time you spent to upgrade gear is still a drop in the bucket compared to a typical NM drop in alot of MMO's. Sure you could get lucky every once in awhile, but alot of things were under a 10% drop rate. Now if it worked on a claim system like how most rare spawn style monsters work then only one person in the area get's the benefit. So lets say that some monster drops this awesome shield that I really want for my PLD. It spawns once every hour to two hours. I'm obviously not gonna be the only one camping it because it's a good piece of gear, so there's about 5 people waiting around for the spawn. Now the first person to get the claim gets the chance to get there gear, but only 1 in ten times. So lets say we are have the same ping and system specs ( this would SCREW people with lower end systems, PS3, people with lower bandwidth) so I get the claim 1 in every six times he spawns. Of those times 1/10 times I'll get the drop. So that becomes something like 1/60 times he spawns that I'm in the zone I could get the drop. Thats a 60 hour average spawn time. Hunt's spawn every 2 hours and benefit a whole group. Trying to equate these two things is quite impossible. It's two completely different approaches to a game.

IMHO rare mob spawns and drops are just a way to create additional difficulty through a time sink. One that also further inhibits users with lower end systems. It's just a bad idea in my opinion.

[Velhart]

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You know how many people gather to kill a hunt mob when it is desired? Imagine hunting Leaping Lizzy with the population we have in each server. This was a pain even in FFXI that had much less people (was a lot at that era's standards). It leads to frustration, drama, and people quitting because they cannot get a mob faster than someone. People are frustrated enough not getting a hunt they need. Sitting there for a long time when you could be doing other activities just to get one piece of gear off one mob. Doesn't matter how much longevity the gear has, people today with the population we have will not go for it.

Hunting HNM's was the most toxic experience I had ever had in any MMO. It led to using third party tools to get claims and people were very quick to attack one another or cheat to get the mob. This set up creates all forms of toxicity in MMO's.

I still find it funny that people's ideas of success in an MMO is how to add more mindless grinding time sinks, when developers should focus on more difficult content for end game. Who hunted Atma and said "Wow I sure do enjoy spending all day in one area grinding FATE's for one out of twelve items!" When these time sinks are put in, its the same people complaining they wanted this that SE put mindless grinding in. People don't know what they want.

Why is this thread not flagged with a crown for the devs to peep into but a thread about how cool the soundtrack is and getting a fat cash plush toy is? Arent we all discussing stuff here to help improve the game?

SE has already come out plenty of times (especially during beta) and discussed why they went in the direction they did, even addressing FFXI players on why some features and mind sets from that game would not work in FFXIV/modern MMO standards. At this point they are beating a dead horse if they keep giving the same explanation over and over. Like I said in a previous post, developers listen to suggestions that work more into the context of FFXIV. It is extremely unlikely they will alter how the game's progression system works and not sure why people think it will change any time soon.

[Ibi]

I still find it funny that people's ideas of success in an MMO is how to add more mindless grinding time sinks, when developers should focus on more difficult content for end game. Who hunted Atma and said "Wow I sure do enjoy spending all day in one area grinding FATE's for one out of twelve items!" When these time sinks are put in, its the same people complaining they wanted this that SE put mindless grinding in. People don't know what they want.

I don't think most of the sensible people who're asking for more things to do necessarily want more grinding time sinks. I hope not, anyway. We just have a few very loud, persistent voices who are looking for that in particular, rather than just going and finding a game where that's the actual design intent.

I know I wouldn't mind more ways to advance my main job outside of Savage (especially now my only remaining upgrades come from A3S and A4S) and I'm vehemently opposed to long, boring grinds.

Personally, I'd like to see something along the lines of ZNMs from XI; force-spawned mobs all over the world, with several tiers, with each tier being more difficult and the upper tiers requiring larger groups and consisting of tougher fights. A lot of the infrastructure is already there with the treasure map system, and the main difficulty of implementing something like that would probably come down to deciding how the reward structure would work.

Why is this thread not flagged with a crown for the devs to peep into but a thread about how cool the soundtrack is and getting a fat cash plush toy is? Arent we all discussing stuff here to help improve the game?

As someone else already noted, the crown just means the thread already has a Dev post in it somewhere. Threads that have a quick, simple, fact-based answer are much more likely to get a Dev post, simply because of the nature of the thread. Threads like this, or the GC thread, or the Paladin in Savage thread don't have a quick, simple answer that the Developers can provide, which limits their options in how they can usefully respond.

[Velhart]

snip

Exactly, people should be asking for multiple forms of hard content, not ways to create longevity through mindless grinds. To be fair to developers, they only have but so much time to put into making content before patch dates. I would suggest balancing content in other places. Like I said in a previous post, making Alex(Normal) on Final Coil level and Alex(Savage) harder than it currently is a good start. Going more in depth with treasure maps, do ZNM content like you mentioned, make EX Primals more challenging, and so on.

Was really awesome how 2.0 handled the ilvl80 relic weapon quest. Involving hard(at the time) boss fights like Chimera and Hydra. Then having you fight Ifrit > Garuda > Titan during their prime to get items. Sure some padding, but it was well paced and not that frustrating and took a good while to obtain. Now developers think all you should do now is slam your head on a rock till you get an item to progress.

There is a major imbalance in this game right now. Everything up to Alex(Savage) is faceroll easy, and makes content boring because everyone has beaten everything else to death at this point. 3.1 will come, people will faceroll Void Ark and the next EX primal and be back here complaining they are bored again. It still disappoints me that we have to make end game content so ridiculously easy except one piece of content. People and developers should go into the mindset end game that if they cannot handle what is given to them, then they need to wait till the next patch to get it nerfed. I am likely the unpopular opinion on that, but I don't recall people playing video games to have everything handed to them, people play them to be challenged. That is why I think things like a ridiculously easy Alex(Normal) is terrible game design and can't believe developers catered to the people who don't want to be challenged.

It is understandable everyone is at their own skill levels and all should be catered to a certain extent, but as we have it right now is horribly balanced towards people not wanting to put the effort. The content should be hard in it's prime, then worked down to be easier over time with higher gear and echo buffs/nerfs when they are no longer in their prime.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

I don't think most of the sensible people who're asking for more things to do necessarily want more grinding time sinks. I hope not, anyway. We just have a few very loud, persistent voices who are looking for that in particular, rather than just going and finding a game where that's the actual design intent.

I know I wouldn't mind more ways to advance my main job outside of Savage (especially now my only remaining upgrades come from A3S and A4S) and I'm vehemently opposed to long, boring grinds.

Personally, I'd like to see something along the lines of ZNMs from XI; force-spawned mobs all over the world, with several tiers, with each tier being more difficult and the upper tiers requiring larger groups and consisting of tougher fights. A lot of the infrastructure is already there with the treasure map system, and the main difficulty of implementing something like that would probably come down to deciding how the reward structure would work.



As someone else already noted, the crown just means the thread already has a Dev post in it somewhere. Threads that have a quick, simple, fact-based answer are much more likely to get a Dev post, simply because of the nature of the thread. Threads like this, or the GC thread, or the Paladin in Savage thread don't have a quick, simple answer that the Developers can provide, which limits their options in how they can usefully respond.

FFXIV is packed full of mindless grinds.

- Tokens.
- Leveling 1-60.
- PvP Ranks.
- MSQ Quests.

None of these things are fun at all. They are boring mindless grinds that suck the life out of you.

Exactly, people should be asking for multiple forms of hard content, not ways to create longevity through mindless grinds. To be fair to developers, they only have but so much time to put into making content before patch dates. I would suggest balancing content in other places. Like I said in a previous post, making Alex(Normal) on Final Coil level and Alex(Savage) harder than it currently is a good start. Going more in depth with treasure maps, do ZNM content like you mentioned, make EX Primals more challenging, and so on.

Was really awesome how 2.0 handled the ilvl80 relic weapon quest. Involving hard(at the time) boss fights like Chimera and Hydra. Then having you fight Ifrit > Garuda > Titan during their prime to get items. Sure some padding, but it was well paced and not that frustrating and took a good while to obtain. Now developers think all you should do now is slam your head on a rock till you get an item to progress.

There is a major imbalance in this game right now. Everything up to Alex(Savage) is faceroll easy, and makes content boring because everyone has beaten everything else to death at this point. 3.1 will come, people will faceroll Void Ark and the next EX primal and be back here complaining they are bored again. It still disappoints me that we have to make end game content so ridiculously easy except one piece of content. People and developers should go into the mindset end game that if they cannot handle what is given to them, then they need to wait till the next patch to get it nerfed. I am likely the unpopular opinion on that, but I don't recall people playing video games to have everything handed to them, people play them to be challenged. That is why I think things like a ridiculously easy Alex(Normal) is terrible game design and can't believe developers catered to the people who don't want to be challenged.

It is understandable everyone is at their own skill levels and all should be catered to a certain extent, but as we have it right now is horribly balanced towards people not wanting to put the effort. The content should be hard in it's prime, then worked down to be easier over time with higher gear and echo buffs/nerfs when they are no longer in their prime.

How about, for example. Adding big contested dungeons with tons of bosses and make the mobs dynamic and wander around and drop loot themselves as well as the bosses. So you have to fight through content and avoid dying or getting ganked by multiple mobs and having to body pull and be careful about how you enter a room.

=3

Drop Rates can be random and there can be placeholder nameds that spawn as well. With 10-20 minute respawn timers.

[karateorangutang]

FFXIV is packed full of mindless grinds.

- Tokens.
- Leveling 1-60.
- PvP Ranks.
- MSQ Quests.

None of these things are fun at all. They are boring mindless grinds that suck the life out of you.

I continues to sound like you don't want an MMO at all.

The leveling grind is fun for a good bulk of us. I don't know about you, but I came into this game expecting and ready for a much longer grind to cap. This games grind is pretty short and sweet in comparison to others. It's a fun way for you to learn the in and outs of your current class. I for one enjoyed the MSQ. It leveled me a bit and gave me a good story to go with my character. I can't comment on PvP as it just doesn't excite me in any way so I don't participate. The tokens in Alex are debateable. It's a good idea, but it was implemented in a way that is rather wonky.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

I continues to sound like you don't want an MMO at all.

The leveling grind is fun for a good bulk of us. I don't know about you, but I came into this game expecting and ready for a much longer grind to cap. This games grind is pretty short and sweet in comparison to others. It's a fun way for you to learn the in and outs of your current class. I for one enjoyed the MSQ. It leveled me a bit and gave me a good story to go with my character. I can't comment on PvP as it just doesn't excite me in any way so I don't participate. The tokens in Alex are debateable. It's a good idea, but it was implemented in a way that is rather wonky.

Not really. In other games you are able to "Power" through this content and doing it more makes it easier. So it doesn't feel like a chore.

Grinding Tokens usually gets easier and easier the more powerful you are. However the issue is the power curve is so low that you don't gain that much power from new gear.. so its hard.

Leveling is usually easier, because in other games you can have friends powerlevel you. Not in this game. I am glad you find it fun. I find it completely useless, mindless and tedious and wish they remove all levels from MMOs. All levels do is make content invalid.

PvP Ranks, just a mindless grind. People trade wins/losses for this all the time with Parties.

MSQ, Cool story. However, when you have to do it again and again with every character its tedious and loses all fun and color.

It may be shorter or faster yes. However its not nearly as fun as pulling tons of monsters and destroying them. Unfortunately they nerfed DD.

It's a fun way for you to learn the in and outs of your current class.

I'm sorry, but 99% of everyone does fates. Which teaches you to spam AOEs.. You would learn your class better if you were challenged at lower levels. Pulling tons of monsters and room clearing is actually challenging, grinding 99999999999999999999999999 fates because its the only good way to gain experience is not challenging. Its completely mindless and zergy.

[Velhart]

FFXIV is packed full of mindless grinds.

- Tokens.
- Leveling 1-60.
- PvP Ranks.
- MSQ Quests.

None of these things are fun at all. They are boring mindless grinds that suck the life out of you.



How about, for example. Adding big contested dungeons with tons of bosses and make the mobs dynamic and wander around and drop loot themselves as well as the bosses. So you have to fight through content and avoid dying or getting ganked by multiple mobs and having to body pull and be careful about how you enter a room.

=3

Drop Rates can be random and there can be placeholder nameds that spawn as well. With 10-20 minute respawn timers.

So Dynamis basically?

[Nektulos-Tuor]

So Dynamis basically?

Funny how it almost sounds like Dynamic. We need more content that will last longer then a day and isn't a ridiculous DPS checks. Contested Zones can last 10+ years. Since they usually give the best XP and are the most challenging not only do they help people learn their class and how to play really well they gain experience a lot faster but also have to fight other players for gear.

Bots can't do the zones well, because your friends and allies can also body pull or "mess up" so bot armies get destroyed. Especially since you need well coordinated humans.

Well, I shouldn't say its impossible to bot. I would just think it would be much much harder then an instance which is always the same. Especially in contested zones where other players affect the zone. Like pulling a lever makes a bridge go or changes the way hallways come out and in.

EQs first contested zones are thrown at you right at low level. That is why at higher levels mostly everyone has some idea how to play their class.

[Velhart]

snip

Dynamis at the end of the day is basically a raid.