More Horizontal Progression please

[Velhart]

snip

You know how many people gather to kill a hunt mob when it is desired? Imagine hunting Leaping Lizzy with the population we have in each server. This was a pain even in FFXI that had much less people (was a lot at that era's standards). It leads to frustration, drama, and people quitting because they cannot get a mob faster than someone. People are frustrated enough not getting a hunt they need. Sitting there for a long time when you could be doing other activities just to get one piece of gear off one mob. Doesn't matter how much longevity the gear has, people today with the population we have will not go for it.

Hunting HNM's was the most toxic experience I had ever had in any MMO. It led to using third party tools to get claims and people were very quick to attack one another or cheat to get the mob. This set up creates all forms of toxicity in MMO's.

I still find it funny that people's ideas of success in an MMO is how to add more mindless grinding time sinks, when developers should focus on more difficult content for end game. Who hunted Atma and said "Wow I sure do enjoy spending all day in one area grinding FATE's for one out of twelve items!" When these time sinks are put in, its the same people complaining they wanted this that SE put mindless grinding in. People don't know what they want.

Why is this thread not flagged with a crown for the devs to peep into but a thread about how cool the soundtrack is and getting a fat cash plush toy is? Arent we all discussing stuff here to help improve the game?

SE has already come out plenty of times (especially during beta) and discussed why they went in the direction they did, even addressing FFXI players on why some features and mind sets from that game would not work in FFXIV/modern MMO standards. At this point they are beating a dead horse if they keep giving the same explanation over and over. Like I said in a previous post, developers listen to suggestions that work more into the context of FFXIV. It is extremely unlikely they will alter how the game's progression system works and not sure why people think it will change any time soon.

[Ibi]

I still find it funny that people's ideas of success in an MMO is how to add more mindless grinding time sinks, when developers should focus on more difficult content for end game. Who hunted Atma and said "Wow I sure do enjoy spending all day in one area grinding FATE's for one out of twelve items!" When these time sinks are put in, its the same people complaining they wanted this that SE put mindless grinding in. People don't know what they want.

I don't think most of the sensible people who're asking for more things to do necessarily want more grinding time sinks. I hope not, anyway. We just have a few very loud, persistent voices who are looking for that in particular, rather than just going and finding a game where that's the actual design intent.

I know I wouldn't mind more ways to advance my main job outside of Savage (especially now my only remaining upgrades come from A3S and A4S) and I'm vehemently opposed to long, boring grinds.

Personally, I'd like to see something along the lines of ZNMs from XI; force-spawned mobs all over the world, with several tiers, with each tier being more difficult and the upper tiers requiring larger groups and consisting of tougher fights. A lot of the infrastructure is already there with the treasure map system, and the main difficulty of implementing something like that would probably come down to deciding how the reward structure would work.

Why is this thread not flagged with a crown for the devs to peep into but a thread about how cool the soundtrack is and getting a fat cash plush toy is? Arent we all discussing stuff here to help improve the game?

As someone else already noted, the crown just means the thread already has a Dev post in it somewhere. Threads that have a quick, simple, fact-based answer are much more likely to get a Dev post, simply because of the nature of the thread. Threads like this, or the GC thread, or the Paladin in Savage thread don't have a quick, simple answer that the Developers can provide, which limits their options in how they can usefully respond.

[Velhart]

snip

Exactly, people should be asking for multiple forms of hard content, not ways to create longevity through mindless grinds. To be fair to developers, they only have but so much time to put into making content before patch dates. I would suggest balancing content in other places. Like I said in a previous post, making Alex(Normal) on Final Coil level and Alex(Savage) harder than it currently is a good start. Going more in depth with treasure maps, do ZNM content like you mentioned, make EX Primals more challenging, and so on.

Was really awesome how 2.0 handled the ilvl80 relic weapon quest. Involving hard(at the time) boss fights like Chimera and Hydra. Then having you fight Ifrit > Garuda > Titan during their prime to get items. Sure some padding, but it was well paced and not that frustrating and took a good while to obtain. Now developers think all you should do now is slam your head on a rock till you get an item to progress.

There is a major imbalance in this game right now. Everything up to Alex(Savage) is faceroll easy, and makes content boring because everyone has beaten everything else to death at this point. 3.1 will come, people will faceroll Void Ark and the next EX primal and be back here complaining they are bored again. It still disappoints me that we have to make end game content so ridiculously easy except one piece of content. People and developers should go into the mindset end game that if they cannot handle what is given to them, then they need to wait till the next patch to get it nerfed. I am likely the unpopular opinion on that, but I don't recall people playing video games to have everything handed to them, people play them to be challenged. That is why I think things like a ridiculously easy Alex(Normal) is terrible game design and can't believe developers catered to the people who don't want to be challenged.

It is understandable everyone is at their own skill levels and all should be catered to a certain extent, but as we have it right now is horribly balanced towards people not wanting to put the effort. The content should be hard in it's prime, then worked down to be easier over time with higher gear and echo buffs/nerfs when they are no longer in their prime.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

I don't think most of the sensible people who're asking for more things to do necessarily want more grinding time sinks. I hope not, anyway. We just have a few very loud, persistent voices who are looking for that in particular, rather than just going and finding a game where that's the actual design intent.

I know I wouldn't mind more ways to advance my main job outside of Savage (especially now my only remaining upgrades come from A3S and A4S) and I'm vehemently opposed to long, boring grinds.

Personally, I'd like to see something along the lines of ZNMs from XI; force-spawned mobs all over the world, with several tiers, with each tier being more difficult and the upper tiers requiring larger groups and consisting of tougher fights. A lot of the infrastructure is already there with the treasure map system, and the main difficulty of implementing something like that would probably come down to deciding how the reward structure would work.



As someone else already noted, the crown just means the thread already has a Dev post in it somewhere. Threads that have a quick, simple, fact-based answer are much more likely to get a Dev post, simply because of the nature of the thread. Threads like this, or the GC thread, or the Paladin in Savage thread don't have a quick, simple answer that the Developers can provide, which limits their options in how they can usefully respond.

FFXIV is packed full of mindless grinds.

- Tokens.
- Leveling 1-60.
- PvP Ranks.
- MSQ Quests.

None of these things are fun at all. They are boring mindless grinds that suck the life out of you.

Exactly, people should be asking for multiple forms of hard content, not ways to create longevity through mindless grinds. To be fair to developers, they only have but so much time to put into making content before patch dates. I would suggest balancing content in other places. Like I said in a previous post, making Alex(Normal) on Final Coil level and Alex(Savage) harder than it currently is a good start. Going more in depth with treasure maps, do ZNM content like you mentioned, make EX Primals more challenging, and so on.

Was really awesome how 2.0 handled the ilvl80 relic weapon quest. Involving hard(at the time) boss fights like Chimera and Hydra. Then having you fight Ifrit > Garuda > Titan during their prime to get items. Sure some padding, but it was well paced and not that frustrating and took a good while to obtain. Now developers think all you should do now is slam your head on a rock till you get an item to progress.

There is a major imbalance in this game right now. Everything up to Alex(Savage) is faceroll easy, and makes content boring because everyone has beaten everything else to death at this point. 3.1 will come, people will faceroll Void Ark and the next EX primal and be back here complaining they are bored again. It still disappoints me that we have to make end game content so ridiculously easy except one piece of content. People and developers should go into the mindset end game that if they cannot handle what is given to them, then they need to wait till the next patch to get it nerfed. I am likely the unpopular opinion on that, but I don't recall people playing video games to have everything handed to them, people play them to be challenged. That is why I think things like a ridiculously easy Alex(Normal) is terrible game design and can't believe developers catered to the people who don't want to be challenged.

It is understandable everyone is at their own skill levels and all should be catered to a certain extent, but as we have it right now is horribly balanced towards people not wanting to put the effort. The content should be hard in it's prime, then worked down to be easier over time with higher gear and echo buffs/nerfs when they are no longer in their prime.

How about, for example. Adding big contested dungeons with tons of bosses and make the mobs dynamic and wander around and drop loot themselves as well as the bosses. So you have to fight through content and avoid dying or getting ganked by multiple mobs and having to body pull and be careful about how you enter a room.

=3

Drop Rates can be random and there can be placeholder nameds that spawn as well. With 10-20 minute respawn timers.

[karateorangutang]

FFXIV is packed full of mindless grinds.

- Tokens.
- Leveling 1-60.
- PvP Ranks.
- MSQ Quests.

None of these things are fun at all. They are boring mindless grinds that suck the life out of you.

I continues to sound like you don't want an MMO at all.

The leveling grind is fun for a good bulk of us. I don't know about you, but I came into this game expecting and ready for a much longer grind to cap. This games grind is pretty short and sweet in comparison to others. It's a fun way for you to learn the in and outs of your current class. I for one enjoyed the MSQ. It leveled me a bit and gave me a good story to go with my character. I can't comment on PvP as it just doesn't excite me in any way so I don't participate. The tokens in Alex are debateable. It's a good idea, but it was implemented in a way that is rather wonky.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

I continues to sound like you don't want an MMO at all.

The leveling grind is fun for a good bulk of us. I don't know about you, but I came into this game expecting and ready for a much longer grind to cap. This games grind is pretty short and sweet in comparison to others. It's a fun way for you to learn the in and outs of your current class. I for one enjoyed the MSQ. It leveled me a bit and gave me a good story to go with my character. I can't comment on PvP as it just doesn't excite me in any way so I don't participate. The tokens in Alex are debateable. It's a good idea, but it was implemented in a way that is rather wonky.

Not really. In other games you are able to "Power" through this content and doing it more makes it easier. So it doesn't feel like a chore.

Grinding Tokens usually gets easier and easier the more powerful you are. However the issue is the power curve is so low that you don't gain that much power from new gear.. so its hard.

Leveling is usually easier, because in other games you can have friends powerlevel you. Not in this game. I am glad you find it fun. I find it completely useless, mindless and tedious and wish they remove all levels from MMOs. All levels do is make content invalid.

PvP Ranks, just a mindless grind. People trade wins/losses for this all the time with Parties.

MSQ, Cool story. However, when you have to do it again and again with every character its tedious and loses all fun and color.

It may be shorter or faster yes. However its not nearly as fun as pulling tons of monsters and destroying them. Unfortunately they nerfed DD.

It's a fun way for you to learn the in and outs of your current class.

I'm sorry, but 99% of everyone does fates. Which teaches you to spam AOEs.. You would learn your class better if you were challenged at lower levels. Pulling tons of monsters and room clearing is actually challenging, grinding 99999999999999999999999999 fates because its the only good way to gain experience is not challenging. Its completely mindless and zergy.

[Ibi]

Grinding Tokens usually gets easier and easier the more powerful you are. However the issue is the power curve is so low that you don't gain that much power from new gear.. so its hard.

Yet you're heavily in the corner of horizontal progression of gear, where the power curve is practically non-existent.

Leveling is usually easier, because in other games you can have friends powerlevel you. Not in this game.

You can absolutely power level someone in this game.

It may be shorter or faster yes. However its not nearly as fun as pulling tons of monsters and destroying them.

grinding 99999999999999999999999999 fates because its the only good way to gain experience is not challenging. Its completely mindless and zergy.

Pulling tons of monsters and destroying them = fun.
Doing the exact same thing in FATES = mindless and zergy.

Okay then.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Yet you're heavily in the corner of horizontal progression of gear, where the power curve is practically non-existent.



You can absolutely power level someone in this game.





Pulling tons of monsters and destroying them = fun.
Doing the exact same thing in FATES = mindless and zergy.

Okay then.

The challenge is the fact that pulling tons of monsters has a threat and fear to it. Fates have no threat and fear. There is a huge difference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atychiphobia

Horizontal Progression can have a power curve. There are just many different power curves, not just one.

[Aeyis]

You can absolutely power level someone in this game.

No, you cannot. You might have a different idea of what powerleveling is, or a pretty low standard for it if you feel powerleveling is possible here.

Pulling tons of monsters and destroying them = fun.
Doing the exact same thing in FATES = mindless and zergy.

Okay then.

Game enjoyment is all about how it's delivered. Combat in this game is pretty..uninteresting. Fates don't bring anything interesting to it either.
In a fate the monsters or objectives are always the same. Kill x amount of monsters. X never changes. The monster for that fate never changes. The abilities it uses are..wait, monsters use abilities?



Game enjoyment is all about how it's delivered.

Yes, I wrote that twice. Probably a reason for it too.

[Sandpark]

Pulling tons of monsters and destroying them = fun.
Doing the exact same thing in FATES = mindless and zergy.

Okay then.

The numbers don't necessarily dictate fun. Crunching through 100 enemies with little chance of dying & 1-2 hit kills is hack n slash whether pulling or not.(pulling can be abused in those cases)

What separates a deep system from that is pulls that require forethought from different members. In a zone of things stronger than you when outnumbered. The puller has to study the path of where to pull a single target & assess which monsters will link if pulled at desired moment.

If the puller pulls at a bad time, it could result in more enemies than the party can handle.Assuming the puller did a good job, the tanks job is to get emnity from the strongest enemy/enemies. Then other jobs will either put some kind of control on certain monsters, and if those monsters are hit or awakened by someone in the party. That could spell bad trouble.It adds an additional emergent element to gameplay.

What makes any mmorpg fun for me is thought and figuring out stuff as long as I don't have to resort to google more than playing the game.

The renkei system also added a dynamic/synergistic,emergent element to gameplay. Here you can buff other players as well. But there is no system that requires real time synergistic coordination and skill combinations to enhance party dynamics, they used to have a regiment system at launch.

The renkei system became less used as time went on because people found it easier to gain xp killing squishier/weaker monsters rather than fighting harder stuff that required the renkei and magic burst. It was a design decision, whether or not that was intended or unintentional is beyond me.
http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Skillchains
http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_Burst

FFXI was known to be a hardcore game, not in terms of difficulty but as having really thoughtful, deep systems, and everything took forever to accomplish(ugh). I don't have another 8 years to dedicate to this game solely. But I sure wish some of that stuff from that game could come here minus the incredibly long time investment and padded stuff.
Anyways, why are we talking about this? I thought this thread was about horizontal progression.