More Horizontal Progression please

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Yet if everyone had gear choice like above there would be situations where one item is better in a situation yet all are viable.

Yes, for example what if they made a fight where you still had to kill a monster but you had to be tanky enough to survive it until you reach 90% of its life, an opposite-rage mechanic. You have to survive it long enough to damage it enough so it weakens. However you also need damage to get it to that HP. However you also need to survive the onslaught!

Indeed, you get it! =)

You sir, are smart. I commend you 1000x~!

Indeed! The way "TRUE" horizontal progression works is every piece of gear, no matter what is viable to use in every single fight in the game.

Snip.

Please take your strawman's someplace else. We are discussing about horizontal progression in games in general, not very very very specific instances of some fights.

[Nadirah]

this is not true? the entire group had to be able to survive Nerve Gas to clear T11.

T5 i think also had that issue when people didn't have enough HP to do 3 stacks on fireballs.

We are not in Coil.

[Ibi]

Yes, but Option 2 offers more healing.

If I'm a DPS, why do I care about healing? My role is to deal DPS so, again, option 3 is superior in all situations. Your definition of vertical.

Or, offer 4.

12% chance on hit to deal 1200 damage.

Now you have no healing, for more damage then the healing and damage one.

Okay, now option 4 is superior for a DPS in every fight. Still your definition of vertical.

You've still not answered the question I actually answered: How big does the advantage a piece of gear has, even if it's only on a single fight, for progression to be considered vertical rather than horizontal?

I'll try and make my point clearer.

Gear A: Attack +50
Gear B: Sometimes attacks three times
Gear C: Occasionally launches giant fireballs at the enemy

On paper, these all look like different ways to do damage. No matter which one you choose, you're getting some sort of bonus damage, and though it may vary how much.

Based on this information alone, this matches your definition of horizontal progression, correct?

Let's say on boss fights 1 through 4, they all perform pretty almost identically.

Still horizontal progression, correct?

Now boss fight 5 is introduced, and he's slightly weak to fire damage. Suddenly gear C is about 5% on this fight.

Am I still horizontal progression? Or am I vertical now?

What if boss fight 6 is introduced, and if it's attacked rapidly in succession, it takes more damage from each hit. It's also weak to fire. Gear B is a massive 25% better on this fight, but because of the fire weakness, gear C is 15% better.

Horizontal or vertical?

Then bosses 7 through 20 are introduced, and they're all about even again.

Horizontal or vertical?

Boss 21 is immune to fire.

Horizontal or vertical?

[Nadirah]

Ibi's explanation is exactly what horizontal progression is. Yours makes less sense and don't even know what you are trying to argue.

Critical mitigation was a mechanic introduced to deal with stat inflation.

When I last played, you *must* have had 100% crit chance or your dps sucked ass, your healing sucked ass. Since scaling was whacked, you'd need 300% crit chance because bosses would negate 200% of it.

Same with chance to be crit. Your defense was so high the boss had to negate it. You needed 300% critical mitigation to have a 100% chance to not get rekt.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

If I'm a DPS, why do I care about healing? My role is to deal DPS so, again, option 3 is superior in all situations. Your definition of vertical.



Okay, now option 4 is superior for a DPS in every fight. Still your definition of vertical.

You've still not answered the question I actually answered: How big does the advantage a piece of gear has, even if it's only on a single fight, for progression to be considered vertical rather than horizontal?

I'll try and make my point clearer.

Gear A: Attack +50.
Gear B: Sometimes attacks three times.
Gear C: Occasionally launches giant fireballs at the enemy.

It became vertical the second you gave one specific effect a damage type then declared that damage types matter greatly.

On paper, these all look like different ways to do damage. No matter which one you choose, you're getting some sort of bonus damage, and though it may vary how much.

Based on this information alone, this matches your definition of horizontal progression, correct?

Let's say on boss fights 1 through 4, they all perform pretty almost identically.

Still horizontal progression, correct?

Vertical.

Now boss fight 5 is introduced, and he's slightly weak to fire damage. Suddenly gear C is about 5% on this fight.

Am I still horizontal progression? Or am I vertical now?

Vertical.

What if boss fight 6 is introduced, and if it's attacked rapidly in succession, it takes more damage from each hit. It's also weak to fire. Gear B is a massive 25% better on this fight, but because of the fire weakness, gear C is 15% better.

That is not only unbalanced from a class design standpoint but also from an item standpoint. That is straight up vertical though, there is a huge advantage in one item thus making all other items pointless to that fight.

Horizontal or vertical?

Vertical.

Then bosses 7 through 20 are introduced, and they're all about even again.

Horizontal or vertical?

Boss 21 is immune to fire.

Horizontal or vertical?

Vertical. There is no choice but to use non-fire effects against him.

They would only be horizontal if said boss took the same amount of damage regardless of type. So a well-balanced proc would be instead of a fireball, it would be a boulder that did physical damage.

Gear A: Adds an extra attack that deals X damage.
Gear B: Sometimes attacks three times dealing damage.
Gear C: Occasionally launches a saw that deals damage.

It shouldn't matter what type, unless all the types are the same. If they are different then its unbalanced procs.

[SendohJin]

We are not in Coil.

the quote you responded to was for FFXIV in general.

[karateorangutang]

Yet if everyone had gear choice like above there would be situations where one item is better in a situation yet all are viable.

So by this logic you would need to acquire all three pieces of gear to be viable in three different contents. Wouldn't that breed an even more toxic environment? Especially if acquiring those pieces took a substantial amount of time?

Horizontal progression the way it's being presented here would make it even more difficult to play multiple jobs for the average player. Vertical progression is more attainable by those with a limited time table because it puts people on a more level footing with gear. This allows things like timing and skill in certain areas to shine through.

I really think this game ( casual style meta) benefits more than suffers from the vertical progression it has.

[Nadirah]

Yet if everyone had gear choice like above there would be situations where one item is better in a situation yet all are viable.

No, there really wouldn't.

The way dps checks work is you'd find the mathematically best gear for that encounter and wear it, regardless of all else.

If you don't, you aren't beating it.

[Kaurie]

This theory crafting of what qualifies as horizontal progression is interesting and all...

How about we bring it back to FFXIV and provide ideas of how we can implement horizontal progression. I think we can all agree that SE is not going to go entirely horizontal and will keep the vertical model. Therefore we want a hybrid anyway, so let's stop fussing over what is 100% horizontal and what isn't.

To add my 2 cents, I think that it would be great to have multiple gear items of the same ilvl, same weapon damage, same main stat with more 'fun' secondary stats. I was playing Diablo III the other day and had an item that randomly spawned minions around me who went and exploded on the enemy. This was one heck of a fun stat. I am not saying add this one in particular, but something more 'fun' than crit rate and det would be great.

[SendohJin]

I really think this game ( casual style meta) benefits more than suffers from the vertical progression it has.

yes, but that doesn't mean you can't have some degree of both.