What does Heavensward actually bring to the table as an expansion?

[Evtrai]

Snip.

Excellent write up, I couldn't have resumed better what's actually going on in such detail.

I'm under the impression that some people has this idea, that staggering your progress of the content even if you do it at a healthy pace is a good idea, from what I gathered from some of the people's comments here, you are supposed to take weeks to hit 60, weeks to clear the content, even though anyone that is an average player (not leeching and expected to be carried over) and capable of paying attention to the game can probably clear it the same day, with the exception of obviously Alexander Savage.

[SendohJin]

In an expansion you add trials and dungeons, you add new jobs, you add new zones, new modes of travel/play.

they didn't add new modes of play. i would've added the flying race thing at launch, make B Rank hunts a daily bill and A Rank hunts a weekly bill. that would've gotten people out flying a lot more and diluted the zergfest of hunts.

[Souljacker]

Please show me some examples of "standards of a modern mmo". Which mmo out there right now doesnt feature time gating and repetitive grind? F2P game where you pay to skip grind and time gate? No thanks.

Way to quote my post and then proceed to make a comment that has absolutely nothing to do with the content of the post. Nowhere did I suggest getting rid of time gating or grinding. In fact, all I mentioned was that it sucks we can't land on all surfaces that intuitively we would expect to and that we can't change zones outside of a 5 yalm doorway like in every other modern mmo on the planet.

Since you asked for examples, here's a few more:

Instanced player housing (No, I'll never shut up about this)
An intuitive and quick inventory system (spreading across x retainers gets tedious)
Useful macros (this irrational fear of botting coupled with Psx limitations has led to a barebones design that doesn't even allow us crtl\shift\alt modifiers or text names on the macros)
Support for addons (please!)
The ability to chat with people while inside dungeons and raids. Other programmers figured it out. Why isn't it even on SE's radar?

And finally, since you mentioned grindy content specifically - WoW's last xpac released with 8 dungeons at all difficulty levels. We have 2 in expert roulette and let me tell you, I have to force myself to run them to help friends because I'm so tired of the same two dungeons over and over again. I don't mind grinding content, but 2 dungeons for an xpac is hardly worthy of even being called content. Where's the expert versions of all the leveling dungeons we got that outside of leveling we haven't ever seen again? HUGE oversight. 2 Primals? Whoopee. And Alex, which most of us cram into an hour of queuing on reset day. Let me just work on Alex Savage, which is the same fight with no additional story and just tighter DPS checks and mechanics. Great for bragging rights, not so great as actual engaging content that I dream about while at work and just can't wait to come home and play. >.>

This game has flaws. I like a lot of it and play it because I'm a FF geek, but that doesn't mean I am just going to remain blind to the fact that SE really depended heavily on peoples' interest in just leveling the new jobs and forgot that there's a sizable portion ALREADY playing the iconic jobs we love (BLM WAR WHM for me). There's not a lot of content and many of the systems here have big, big issues (housing!!!). It's not up to the standards of a modern mmo.

[Evtrai]

I'm sure this thread is parroting my feelings: "how long can SE keep the 3.0 meta of faceroll content > unforgiving content?"

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...a_of_faceroll/

[SDaemon]

WoW's last xpac released with 8 dungeons at all difficulty levels. We have 2 in expert roulette and let me tell you, I have to force myself to run them to help friends because I'm so tired of the same two dungeons over and over again. I don't mind grinding content, but 2 dungeons for an xpac is hardly worthy of even being called content.

Yeah WoD released with 8 dungeons and only those 8 for the entire life of the expansion. In MoP we were stuck with the same 9 dungeons at release (3 of which were Heroic versions of Vanilla content) for the life of the expansion.

On the other hand those 2 dungeons we have now are just the first in a long succession of dungeons to be added throughout the life of 3.0. It sucks for the moment, and Neverreap can burn in a fiery pit for eternity, but I'd much rather have dungeons added gradually than be stuck with the same 8-9 dungeons for over a year...

Is there a better alternative? Most likely, but strictly comparing to WoW I'd much much rather have what we have here in XIV.

[Ryel]

I didn't quite get the same sense from your full post as I do from your TL;DR: version. You described at length how in your opinion it doesn't take long to get to 60. If it takes players weeks to get to 60, then pray tel how are they saying there is not enough content? Any game that takes weeks to complete is more than worth the cost of the HW expansion, but hitting lvl 60 on a job is hardly completing the expansion is it? I'm actually kind of confused by your post because you spend so long describing how you can level up, and then what happens after you level up, but you're not really addressing the point made.

Read that part again:

This means that anyone with 30 minutes to an hour a day (queues provided when doing dungeons) can easily make their way up from 50 to 60 over a period of a few weeks if their main form of enjoyment is battle content (which btw is required to unlock the crafting / gathering content).

If your pace is faster or slower than that then obviously your personal play experience will be very different, but this game isn't like a lot of other games where leveling to cap often took extended periods of time.

It takes maybe 2 weeks at a mere 30 minutes to an hour a day at it's most casual, but any more than that and you are rapidly approaching the level cap, in fact given that the game was released over summer vacation for a large number of NA players it was quite easy for many of them to hit 60 over the course of a weekend due to how easy the game makes it to get leveling exp.

which means that statements like this:

The point being, for players who play in a very focused and time intensive manner, they can cap their level at 60 within a small number of days, and be farming Alex Normal for Alex Savage, then onto Savage before many players have surpassed lvl 52. Playing in such a tightly focused manner skips huge amounts of content in the game, but there are a fair number of players who only desire to raid, and don't bother with anything else in the game. These are the ones speeding to the end-game and then burning out by voluntarily farming content for gear drops to use when raiding. When those same players start complaining about the content in the expansion not being enough, or being copy/paste from ARR (which IMHO is a completely ridiculous assertion to make), they are complaining from a position that they inflicted on themselves.

If people burn through 10-20% of a game, and get bored, then why should we pay any attention to them for their complaints when they haven't touched the remaining 80+% of the game?

Ignore the fact that you don't actually have to be playing in a focused manner to achieve what you're saying, in fact you just need to be slightly above the most casual of casual play hours.

Game content should not be so shallow that by playing more than 30 minutes to an hour here and there you are essentially on the fast track to invalidating 80-90% of the game's content because the majority of it doesn't have real roadblocks or staying power to make it worthwhile.

If leveling takes virtually no time to get done, and endgame takes virtually no time to get done bar the one raid, then there is an issue with the volume and worth of your overall content, something an expansion is supposed to add more substance to. Instead the beginning of the current expansion not only gave us more of the same while invalidating 99% of the previous content that was released in ARR (ayyyyy coil) but it also further streamlined it so it takes players even less time to blow through multiple ilvls worth of gear sets and content additions.

And yes the content is very much copy pasted (in format) from ARR, lets compare this to systems from the game that shall not be named:

Dynamis
Limbus
Salvage

Over three expansions each one of those were added as a form of endgame content (1 per expac), and while they all followed the same theme of kill mobs, then kill bosses, and get loot they all took very different approaches to how players went about doing so, this doesn't even include the various other endgame events each expansion added like Sky, Sea, and Einherjar or even ENMs, BCNMs, ZNMs, or Nyzul Isle.

The purpose of an expansion is meant to enhance and add more to the game systems that were established as a base foundation (2.0), but in this case the endgame (excluding Savage) has actually become obsolete at a much faster pace than 2.0's initial batch due to various features like easy mode Alex instead of baseline Coil, Lack of a 3.0 launch relic quest, the rapid ilvl climb, and new weekly limits (sup red scrips).

I'm really not sure what it is that people expect to see in an expansion. The expansion of FFXIV added;

New race
New jobs
New level cap
New crafting system
New trials
New raid (with two modes)
New Dungeons
New (and much larger) zones
New FC content (Airships)
New mode of travel (Flight)
New monsters
New gear
New side quests
New leve quests
New hunts
...

All those EXPAND the original game significantly. How is that not an expansion? Seems pretty good to me, it definitely expands the game from what we had with ARR 2.55. Especially considering that this development work was done in parallel with the continual schedule of major patches every 3 months and minor patches every 4-6 weeks in between, along with hot fixes.

What is it that you who are complaining would consider extensive enough or different enough, to satisfy your expectations?


Unless the world has changed significantly, EX mode primals are not "mid-core" content. When released EX primals are end-game, hardcore content, and only become mid-core once nerfs, echo and overgear puts them within reach of the less elite players. This was how it was with ARR, and I have seen and heard nothing different with regard to HW. I think this idea that EX mode primals are less than hardcore comes from hardcore players who have burned out on existing end-game content and won't play other non-end-game content in the game. Seems like people's expectations rescale dynamically as they overgear content and burnout.

You are correct in that the expansion added many of those things, but they are added as framework which is something any MMO expansion is expected to add, things like new zones, races, dungeons etc.

The point the OP, my TL;DR, and many others are getting at is that expansion framework doesn't really mean anything if the systems and the pacing are the same or in some cases worse than it was in 2.0. while the zones are amazing to look at and have great potential so did plenty of the ARR zones that players hardly even return to now. Sure you can praise the new dungeons but that novelty wears off realy quick when the game expects you to run the same 2 of them to cap Eso each week. And a normal raid with no bite not only lessens the appeal of the savage raid as much of it becomes old hat as far as story and exploration goes, it's actually turned off many of the raiders who previously ran coil in the 2.x series.

I said before that i personally enjoy the Bismark Ex fight, but that really doesn't mean anything if i have virtually zero reason to ever run it again because the game gives me no reason or incentive to.

They have amazing framework laid down, they've had it since 2.0; the world looks cool, the battle system is fun, they've been getting better at balancing loot rules (token systems are finally back from 1.0 btw) but now it's time to take larger steps forward and so far we're just seeing more of the same. A game from the same company made over 10 years ago should not have more ambition and substance than their current flagship product, especially after all the attention and commercial success it's now receiving, hence why many players keep hoping they step it up but are disappointed when they just receive more of what we had before.

Also as to your comment about Ex primals not being midcore content, sure they are.

The difference is just the amount of the playerbase that is actually willing to attempt the content, unfortunately so many players are unaware of their actual performance due to things like the lack of an in-game parser (seriously there are like 20 other threads on this), and the fact that the game itself doesn't really encourage players to become more proficient at their jobs (just throw echo at it).

There's also this strange boogeyman mentality when it comes to people putting up Party Finder groups for learning but that's a completely different rant, the point is that outside of savage a vast majority of the content available isn't as hard some try to make it out to be, but many players either don't attempt it at all (cause reasons?) or get discouraged by a handful of unskilled or unlearned groups and give up until echo is added.

[Gilraen]

There's a problem with changing a game. Essentially, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." 'But it is broken!' I don't see how it's broken given it IS a fix of what WAS broken (I speak of 1.0). Even people in this own thread talk of how solid 2.0 is over what it was. Fixing what isn't broken kills games, a prime... no, the poster child of this very argument is Star Wars Galaxies. Sony took a fun sand-box game where you can literally be anything you want, dragged it out back and beat it with a 2x4. Repeatedly. And didn't stop until the death knell that was New Game Experience. That is something I would never wish even on games I hate. Besides, expansions don't redesign the games they're for, they expand on them. Something Heavensward is doing nicely. Yes, 'doing', because it's far from done.

[aurace1095]

There's a problem with changing a game. Essentially, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." 'But it is broken!' I don't see how it's broken given it IS a fix of what WAS broken (I speak of 1.0). Even people in this own thread talk of how solid 2.0 is over what it was. Fixing what isn't broken kills games, a prime... no, the poster child of this very argument is Star Wars Galaxies. Sony took a fun sand-box game where you can literally be anything you want, dragged it out back and beat it with a 2x4. Repeatedly. And didn't stop until the death knell that was New Game Experience. That is something I would never wish even on games I hate. Besides, expansions don't redesign the games they're for, they expand on them. Something Heavensward is doing nicely. Yes, 'doing', because it's far from done.

Please look at the post above yours:

And yes the content is very much copy pasted (in format) from ARR, lets compare this to systems from the game that shall not be named:

Dynamis
Limbus
Salvage

Over three expansions each one of those were added as a form of endgame content (1 per expac), and while they all followed the same theme of kill mobs, then kill bosses, and get loot they all took very different approaches to how players went about doing so, this doesn't even include the various other endgame events each expansion added like Sky, Sea, and Einherjar or even ENMs, BCNMs, ZNMs, or Nyzul Isle.

It's not that people want a completely new game. The New Game Enhancement from SWG is completely different - that's more akin to what 2.0 did from 1.0. We just want new content that actually has variety, something different to do at endgame.

[DawnSolaria]

Way to quote my post and then proceed to make a comment that has absolutely nothing to do with the content of the post. Nowhere did I suggest getting rid of time gating or grinding. In fact, all I mentioned was that it sucks we can't land on all surfaces that intuitively we would expect to and that we can't change zones outside of a 5 yalm doorway like in every other modern mmo on the planet.

Since you asked for examples, here's a few more:

Instanced player housing (No, I'll never shut up about this)
An intuitive and quick inventory system (spreading across x retainers gets tedious)
Useful macros (this irrational fear of botting coupled with Psx limitations has led to a barebones design that doesn't even allow us crtl\shift\alt modifiers or text names on the macros)
Support for addons (please!)
The ability to chat with people while inside dungeons and raids. Other programmers figured it out. Why isn't it even on SE's radar?

And finally, since you mentioned grindy content specifically - WoW's last xpac released with 8 dungeons at all difficulty levels. We have 2 in expert roulette and let me tell you, I have to force myself to run them to help friends because I'm so tired of the same two dungeons over and over again. I don't mind grinding content, but 2 dungeons for an xpac is hardly worthy of even being called content. Where's the expert versions of all the leveling dungeons we got that outside of leveling we haven't ever seen again? HUGE oversight. 2 Primals? Whoopee. And Alex, which most of us cram into an hour of queuing on reset day. Let me just work on Alex Savage, which is the same fight with no additional story and just tighter DPS checks and mechanics. Great for bragging rights, not so great as actual engaging content that I dream about while at work and just can't wait to come home and play. >.>

This game has flaws. I like a lot of it and play it because I'm a FF geek, but that doesn't mean I am just going to remain blind to the fact that SE really depended heavily on peoples' interest in just leveling the new jobs and forgot that there's a sizable portion ALREADY playing the iconic jobs we love (BLM WAR WHM for me). There's not a lot of content and many of the systems here have big, big issues (housing!!!). It's not up to the standards of a modern mmo.

1. Instanced housing should not be the standard, that is only your opinion. As someone who owns the house close to fc and friend I would rather keep it this way.
2. I partially agree on inventory, but they did give us a lot of space in the beginning.
3. Macros, the ones i use serve their purpose(mostly crafting). But im sure some people require more to work with.
4. While i do support certain addons, I can see why they hesitate to do it, games with addon support have mostly turned into real time spreadsheet.
5. I dont recall this being the "standard". Most mmo ive played still require a third party voip.

More dungeons are still being released. At the end of 2.55, there were more hardmode then I could handle. SE could either release all HM at the start, and have people complain all the way til end of xpac, or gradually release them and have people complain every once in a while. Either way people are going to complain. Additionally, WoW "heroic" mode is just same dungeon with higher stats, while HM in FFXIV is whole different dungeon taking place in the same setting, this ofc takes more time to develop.
The percentage of people who actually completed Savage is very small, normal gives players the chance to step into Alexander.(old lfr argument) WoW's different raid difficulty is no different, and I keep comparing to WoW because its the most comparable and most successful out there.

Game has flaws, this I do not disagree. But a lot of people are just complaining for the sake of complaining. I mean do you honestly think HW has brought absolutely NOTHING into the game?

[Gilraen]

It's not that people want a completely new game. The New Game Enhancement from SWG is completely different - that's more akin to what 2.0 did from 1.0. We just want new content that actually has variety, something different to do at endgame.

From many of the posts it seems people are more wanting Abyssea than Dynamis. Dynamis didn't really change anything for it's game, just expanded on it. Abyssea changed the game. Many players left when it launched it changed things that much. Understandably so, I might add, for many of the same reasons as SWG.