The Real Problem with Parsers

[OPneedNerfs]

Good, because I've never said that. What I have said is that if you don't want to deal with random bads, don't queue in a thing that can give you random bads.

Too bad there is absolutely no guarantee of said random bads not joining PF is there? Back to square one again. Same problem. So then the people in the PF are justified to kick, but then still get reported and "waste the time and resources" as I quote from what you said of SE. Your solution to not use DF is not a solution at all.

Not everybody that's competent is impatient.

Not everybody that's incompetent is patient either. Hasn't there been enough scenarios of the actual bads going "you guys suck" and leaving before the other more patient competent ones?

I don't know, would they? You realize that taking things to an extreme is not an effective way to disprove an argument, right? Not everybody who's competent cares about whether or not a bad DPS is going to add 10 minutes to their DF run. So taking it to the extreme point of everybody is largely irrelevant unless you think that it's a logically likely scenario.

lol *ahem*

Brilliant, and then they can lose paying customers because not only do they feel the players are attacking them, they can feel like SE wants the players to keep attacking them because THEY are the ones getting punished for feeling attacked enough to report!

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At this point, it's just everyone repeating the same old arguments over and over. Neither side is going to convince the other that their views are wrong/right. The only thing to do is agree to disagree and continue playing and enjoy the game however it is we've been enjoying it up till now.

General rule of thumb for the competent,
Meet a bad that is causing the content to be unclearable? Don't mention parsers, don't harass, just kick or leave/disband. Got reported? If you haven't said anything that breaks ToS, you won't get banned.

[Elazu]

No more than anyone is entitled to outright waste the time of even a single other person. If you kick someone from a group because of low DPS, you have outright wasted their queue time. If they then queue again, all you've done is displaced whose time is being wasted. If they get kicked again, more of their time is being wasted. Because you think your time is inherently more valuable than theirs.

By this point, you have to be trolling.

[StouterTaru]

Even by that definition, "can" is still correct. They, by virtue of action (or lack thereof), give permission to use them.

...

You ignored the important point, that whether or not something is objectively harassment, that doesn't mean that reports can't be put in about it and that's something SE has to deal with somehow, costing time and resources that may be better spent responding to more important matters.

Permitting something to happen is not the same as giving permission. With your own logic you are giving ISIS permission to commit atrocities.

People submit reports for worthless BS all the time, parsers wouldn't change anything. I'm sure SE has a crybaby list of people that report everything that they don't like, and zip through their complaints without much investigation.

[Aiselia]

Too bad there is absolutely no guarantee of said random bads not joining PF is there?

I see, you don't have a FC or a friends list or people you know that you can group with?

Hasn't there been enough scenarios of the actual bads going "you guys suck" and leaving before the other more patient competent ones?

I don't know. I've never seen that.

lol *ahem*

That's not taking things to an extreme, though. That's a logical scenario. If someone keeps getting kicked for having low DPS and reports every one, are you saying it's not logical for them to feel even more angry when they get punished instead?

Neither side is going to convince the other that their views are wrong/right.

And fortunately, I don't have to convince anybody their views are wrong. They have to convince SE that their views are wrong.

In a way, one could consider this thread as a parser for their arguments against SE, which is the savage content they want to clear. The people who outright admit they'll call out people on their DPS more if it's allowed and the ones that get ragey and insult people in this thread already? They're the bad DPS that will hold back the clear because they're proving the paranoia right. The good DPS are the ones who make arguments that are civil and logical and actually prove SE wrong, rather than trying to shove aside their concerns and say it just doesn't matter.

Convincing me is, of course, irrelevant because I don't make the decision, but trying to convince me is a way to tune the arguments to be effective (for example, instead of outright demanding group parsers, some people have more intelligently suggested that personal parsers are put in for those who only want a tool for self improvement, with an option to share it with the group), rather than just bounce the same things off of, which I guess makes me the practice dummy. \o/

With your own logic you are giving ISIS permission to commit atrocities.

Wow, really? Are you really making the claim that SE being perfectly capable of looking at peoples' screenshots and videos and seeing parsers and banning them for using it, or my own example of watching somebody rob my house right in front of me, is somehow analogous to me being absolutely incapable of stopping people that I don't know and can't affect from doing something across the world from me? I think I'm just going to start ignoring you now, because with every post, your arguments are just getting worse to the point where I'm pretty sure you're just trolling.

parsers wouldn't change anything.

Prove it.

By this point, you have to be trolling.

I'm sorry you think that.

[PotatoWafflez]

I will just leave this here to show you how parsers in general won't mean anything to the average player if we take WoW as an example.

https://youtu.be/GFWh9aY4pas?t=2m8s

It also highlights that the key issue is not about the numbers and is actually getting people to play to the best of their ability and not lowering the bar over and over.

The fact that we have DPS checks is the only reason that what happens in that video doesn't happen in this game.

[Dante_V]

This game desperately needs damage meters. The OP is complete opinion by the way and has no fact to back his very weak hypothesis.

[CedricDur]

When I see this sort of talk brought up I think of the time I was playing a shadow priest over WoW and another shadow priest joined. I was doing 6k, he was doing 1k. Everyone who had a parser could see it and we paused, asked what he was doing, and it turns out he thought that using his DoTs and then use the skill that made them explode for 30% of the damage was a good move. We explained it wasn't, I told him to DoT normally, even as to only use one or two DoTs instead of doing the full gamut since mobs died too fast.

He went back up to 5k. Not topmost, but a ginormous improvement.

What I hear/read, when I see these sort of threads are people who want to do their unique builds and faceroll. Now, if they are all grouped together and of the same mind, that's fine, they fail, they get better or they continue failing. But the 1k wonder who, unlike that dude I mentioned who took the advice and cheerfuly left us at the end knowing better, is usually complaining does not want to conform AND still wants to win at his or her goal.

'I have my special build. I don't do cookie cutter builds!'
'...but you're doing 50% of the damage?'
'IT DOES NOT MATTER! I WILL NOT PLAY A COOKIE CUTTER BUILD!'

(I had this actual conversation once).



Even back in Neverwinter Nights I knew people who proudly took all the feats involving +2 to poison saving throws because 'they were role-playing a yuan-ti and it made sense for them to have it'. I don't think the mobs care one iota.


I note with some cynicism how this whole 'I got kicked because I did 50 DPS less' never seems to happen when asked around in the forums, or to friends, or mentioned to the guild, which leads me to think if 50 DPS was not rather 750 with just a little bit exaggeration in order to garner sympathy.

[DPZ2]

I believe the mistreatment is exaggerated. Being removed from a party because you weren't carrying your weight does not equate abuse. No one is entitled to the time of 3-7-23 other people. There's an epidemic in society today where anyone who gets in trouble looks outside themselves for the reason it happened.

There is a time-limit on instances for a reason. SE determined that it might take a group upwards of 90 minutes to finish a set of instances. "Carrying your weight" needs to be weighed against those 90 minutes, not the 15-20 minute speed-runs demanded by bored players looking to gain tomes from some daily roulette and then complaining about all those folk who are slowing them down.

In a Story Mode Instance, the expectation should be "it takes as much time as it takes".

For Extremes and Raids, go ahead an knock yourself out.

[OPneedNerfs]

There's also a reason why they introduced a kick/vote abandon option.

[Aiselia]

There's also a reason why they introduced a kick/vote abandon option.

Yep, for cases of Harassment, Cheating, being AFK, or being offline.