The Real Problem with Parsers

[Aiselia]

I don't want them in my DF pool.

Unfortunately for you, then, it isn't your pool. It's everybody's pool. They could just as easily say that they don't want people who'd kick them over DPS in their DF pool and be just as valid because you're both players.

What's the problem, again?

The effect they have before they get reported.

Both of which are very nearly meaningless metrics.

Still better than going in blind.

"Carry me, senpai!" is not an option on the DF queue.

What's carrying to you may be fine to them. Just like what may be justified kicking due to carrying to you is harassment to them and will just get them to report you. Again, who decides the threshold of what's carrying and what's not? Some people may feel that if someone's doing 800 DPS on a class with gear that could be doing 1200 DPS is being carried. Are they right in that assumption? Should SE make a new set of rules to govern what's carrying and what's not carrying? Or should they just deal with extra reports from people getting kicked for that?

And again I'll ask, what happens if you kick the person you were carrying, open up to fill the spot, and then another person comes in that's just as bad or worse? Do you kick them to? What gives you the right to waste multiple peoples' queue times? If you don't want to carry a person, what's stopping YOU from leaving the party and not forcing your will on someone else?

How many players stop playing because they're tired of people thinking they deserve to clear content just because they can queue for it?

If they do, then they clearly didn't exercise the options available to them by premaking parties.

You can't just pretend there isn't another side to this.

I'm not. I'm just not saying that my side is more important than anyone else's, and especially not more important than SE's. Fact is, if SE says they don't want to risk problems with people being harassed or kicked because of their DPS, then saying "Sure there will be problems but eventually there might not be" isn't going to convince them otherwise.

That's the only character on your account. If you have another account, by all means link it?

That's the only character on my account I've chosen to display.

Honestly, you're better off putting your main or whatever to backup your own perspectives.

I intentionally do not to weed out the people who choose ad hominem arguments over real ones. Even if this was my only character, it does not invalidate my argument and so is irrelevant. What I have personally done in the game is irrelevant to the merits and drawbacks of a system allowing people to kick based on DPS.

[Erim-Nelhah]

For those thinking that parsers will be abused, well, I agree that they will. The difference between your stance and mine is this: I think people abusing parsers should be punished, regardless of whether or not an official one is ever implemented. Let SE define what does and doesn't constitute abuse - they're decent about it - and be aware that PF groups listing DPS requirements probably won't (and shouldn't) be considered abuse, since you don't have to join said PF groups.

Also:

But what if the only PF groups available on my server all have ridiculous requirements on them?

Then make your own PF group. You may find that there are other like-minded players out there willing to join.

As for kicking someone for simply having low DPS, even when you're able to clear the content just fine, I've never had that happen - not once. If it does, well, idk if SE will call that abuse, or if they'll call it a "playstyle difference", but I'm leaning towards abuse here...and people who do it should be punished.

--Erim Nelhah

[hallena]

something something harrasment/report/ban.

I once queu'd for a dungeon in 2.4 and the tank decided he would not do anything for 15minutes until we can kick him and afk at the beginning of the run. We opened a ticket and the GM told us he is allowed to play however he want. Nothing happened to him.
So good luck on your crusade to report everyone, rambo.

who decides the threshold of what's carrying and what's not?

The majority apparently. If a votekick is initiated and the majority voted yes, The group don't want you with them. Either you deal with it or rename yourself brianna, make a patreon and go on twitter telling everyone about how much of a victim you are. I'm sure more people will care about your world first problem there than here.
OR
Get good and people will stop vote kicking you

[Aiselia]

So good luck on your crusade to report everyone, rambo.

Sorry, were you meaning to quote Viridiana? Because they're the one that suggested that "the community would be cleaned up" by reporting people who would just use parsers as an excuse to kick. I'm the one that didn't say anything about reporting people except that it'd only cause an increase in tickets, which obviously would be a downside to SE.

Get good and people will stop vote kicking you

OR take your eyes off your parser for ten minutes and look up a guide on how to preform a party. You'll find it does wonders for not having to worry about whether you're carrying people, and run time will go up if you run with the same people so you know how to work together better.

But by all means, keep posting. You're only helping the argument against adding parsers by being an example of the people they're trying to avoid.

[RiceisNice]

...
What I have personally done in the game is irrelevant to the merits and drawbacks of a system allowing people to kick based on DPS.

Yes it does actually. It'd be the equivalent of me saying that I've done A3S and A3S is too easy, without any sort of proof that I've even stepped into A3S. In which case, you don't have any classes beyond level 50. It's entirely relevant of showing how far you are into the game which gives us an idea on what perspective (or lack of) you're speaking from.

And honestly, some of these kicks can happen without a parser anyway. It's damn too obvious to tell that someone is slacking because they are spamming the same skill over and over (which leads to +15-20 minute added runs) and someone who is not an elite (which at most, adds maybe 5 minutes).

When its actually needed is when you're trying to curnch numbers to meet checks in the likes of savage...which unfortunately PS3/4 players are SoL of doing so on their own time.

[DestinovaTrueblade]

I play on PS4 so I am not familier with ACT, I was under the impression that it was merely a DPS Meter. B

like I said, DPS is all anyone care or talks about.

Eh? What we definitely care about heals and tanks doing their main jobs, cause when they don't the whole group would simply wipe. It's just that during progression we need them to contribute dps because the dps people are undergeared.

[Aiselia]

Yes it does actually.

No, it isn't relevant. The effect of having parsers in game on the community has nothing to do with what I've done in the game. Are you saying that if I have cleared A4S, that means I am more right about parsers causing more kicks and harassment than if I haven't even cleared Ravana HM?

It's damn too obvious to tell that someone is slacking because they are spamming the same skill over and over

Then clearly parsers are not as necessary to holding DPS accountable as people would argue. I can tell easily when there's any significantly underperforming DPS, so I don't know why people say it's so hard.

And remember: The problem isn't the people who would hold off kicking until the person's adding half an hour to the run. It's the people who would boot as soon as they think they're going to add that 5 minutes.

[Viridiana]

Unfortunately for you, then, it isn't your pool. It's everybody's pool.

Right, which means people like this are hurting everybody. Does it count as selfish if you do something that benefits you along with everyone else, or when you do something that benefits you at the expense of everyone else?

They could just as easily say that they don't want people who'd kick them over DPS in their DF pool and be just as valid because you're both players.

The wonders of democracy. Either there are more people unwilling to improve at all costs, in which case people will stop using DF or leave the game entirely; or there are more willing to kick for blatant unwillingness to improve, in which case people unwilling to improve will leave the DF or the game. I'd rather pick the option that increases the general skill level of the populace, not the one that lowers it. It's already plenty low.

The effect they have before they get reported.

I suppose you don't clean cuts either, because it hurts to clean them even though it leads to a more desirable outcome.

Still better than going in blind.

No, it's essentially still going in blind. Besides, are you really arguing that we should go back to the days of "LFG BRD+BLM for WP SR! Must have relic+1 and full Darklight!"? Because even as a BRD playing then, that crap sucked.

What's carrying to you may be fine to them.

Rather exactly the problem, isn't it? Most of us don't expect everyone we meet in DF to be above average. Most of us will settle for slightly below average, even. Carrying is below that. More on this in a moment, though…

Some people may feel that if someone's doing 800 DPS on a class with gear that could be doing 1200 DPS is being carried. Are they right in that assumption? Should SE make a new set of rules to govern what's carrying and what's not carrying? Or should they just deal with extra reports from people getting kicked for that?

I'd be ashamed for them if they're doing 800 out of 1200 DPS. I wouldn't usually consider it enough to kick, though. If we're failing fights and the MNK is doing less damage than the PLD, though, we're gonna have to have a talk.

And again I'll ask, what happens if you kick the person you were carrying, open up to fill the spot, and then another person comes in that's just as bad or worse? Do you kick them to? What gives you the right to waste multiple peoples' queue times?

If they can't complete the content, they're wasting their own queue time. I'm just saving everyone, the incompetent ones included, from having it be a drawn out travesty. I can either let them waste their queue time and the 90 dungeon minutes of 3/7 other people, or I can let them waste their own queue time and cut short their wasting of actual dungeon time. If their replacement is just as bad, we have a new person to try to work with. If that still doesn't work, I'll eat the 30 minute penalty like I've done a few times before.

If you don't want to carry a person, what's stopping YOU from leaving the party and not forcing your will on someone else?

I'm pretty sure that I already said "Carry me, senpai!" isn't a DF option. How would you feel if you kept getting matched with DPS who would only auto-attack during each of your roulette runs? People losing to the healer in DPS? People actually doing less DPS than the Limit Break does? Behaviour like this isn't acceptable to me, because it's putting oneself above the group (while still basically hindering oneself, oddly).

There's a reason that carries are sold for millions of gil. Hint: it's not because they're readily available in DF. If someone wants a carry, the onus is on them to find a group willing to do so out of either friendship or payment.

If they do, then they clearly didn't exercise the options available to them by premaking parties.

Shouldn't need to premake a party to finish Neverreap in a reasonable time. And honestly, if you're really telling all the most competent people to just make premades instead of using DF, you're directly advocating for a DF pool of incompetent people. This seems self-defeating in the extreme, unless you're already doing premades.

I'm not. I'm just not saying that my side is more important than anyone else's, and especially not more important than SE's. Fact is, if SE says they don't want to risk problems with people being harassed or kicked because of their DPS, then saying "Sure there will be problems but eventually there might not be" isn't going to convince them otherwise.

What kind of reputation do they want? Do they want to be known as the company that demands DPS levels but doesn't allow people to measure DPS? Do they want to be known as the company that babies their players to the point that it intrudes against actual functionality (which is what they already do, separate from the parser discussion)? Because these are both valid points that can be raised to potential customers, and I suspect it hurts sales already.

That's the only character on my account I've chosen to display.

I'm reasonably sure there's no option in the forum's settings to limit which characters on an account are visible in the profile page. If there are, I can't find them even though I just went looking for them. Mind telling me where they are? I've only got the one character that matters, but I'm pretty sure people can see both of my characters if they look.

OR take your eyes off your parser for ten minutes and look up a guide on how to preform a party. You'll find it does wonders for not having to worry about whether you're carrying people, and run time will go up if you run with the same people so you know how to work together better.

You really seem to think that preforming a party is magically going to keep underperformers out, don't you? Having been an underperformer in a PF group, I can tell you that it really doesn't. But when I was called out on my bad play, I apologized and dropped group. The next night, I got back into the same leader's group and performed much better, because I assessed what I was doing wrong and corrected it and because they were nice enough to give me a second chance.

Meanwhile, you're basically advocating a static or semi-static just to do normal DF content. That's really your solution?

EDIT:

Then clearly parsers are not as necessary to holding DPS accountable as people would argue. I can tell easily when there's any significantly underperforming DPS, so I don't know why people say it's so hard.

And this is the issue with snipping quotes and quote mining. Rice said that some kicks will happen regardless of parsers because some people do really obvious issues. Good job trying to extrapolate that out to everyone, though.

how did you get that?

http://zantetsuken.net/news/new-scre...l&shared=email

ARR developer screenshots from before launch.

[StouterTaru]

No, it isn't relevant. The effect of having parsers in game on the community has nothing to do with what I've done in the game. Are you saying that if I have cleared A4S, that means I am more right about parsers causing more kicks and harassment than if I haven't even cleared Ravana HM?

----

And remember: The problem isn't the people who would hold off kicking until the person's adding half an hour to the run. It's the people who would boot as soon as they think they're going to add that 5 minutes.

Your argument was that you've never done content in duty finder where dps prevented completing it, therefore such content doesn't exist. So yeah, it does matter if you haven't done any content with an enrage timer.

How exactly are you going to boot someone the second you think they are going to add 5 minutes to the run? It takes 5 minutes in before you can initiate a vote kick, plus the time to wait on a replacement in hopes they are better. It's not a real issue.

[Aiselia]

Does it count as selfish if you do something that benefits you along with everyone else, or when you do something that benefits you at the expense of everyone else?

It counts as selfish force your will to negatively impact somebody else when you have the option to remove yourself from that party as well as create your own parties. You seem to keep glossing over the fact that nobody is forcing you into DF to deal with these people.

I'd rather pick the option that increases the general skill level of the populace, not the one that lowers it. It's already plenty low.

I'd rather pick the option that includes the largest amount of people rather than exclude them based on a subjective "requirement". If anyone leaves the game because they can't control DF, that's their own fault for not exercising their other options. If someone leaves the game because people are just kicking them, well...

I suppose you don't clean cuts either, because it hurts to clean them even though it leads to a more desirable outcome.

I suppose that if someone gets a cut on their arm in public, you'd be fine if someone shot the person in the face to avoid the person being hurt because that person would then go to jail and clean up the streets. (I can make non sequiturs too!)

A more relevant analogy would have been that I don't take it upon myself to empty a bottle of rubbing alcohol on somebody else's cut because they didn't care to clean it themselves.

Besides, are you really arguing that we should go back to the days of "LFG BRD+BLM for WP SR! Must have relic+1 and full Darklight!"?

If it would keep those people out of DF, yes.

Rather exactly the problem, isn't it?

It is. Acceptable DPS is subjective. You may feel like you're carrying someone only if they're doing 200 DPS. Someone else may feel like they're carrying someone if they're doing only 900 DPS when they could be doing 1200. That's why it shouldn't be a valid reason for kicking.

I wouldn't usually consider it enough to kick, though.

Which leads us back to "It doesn't matter if YOU would. It matters if anybody would."

If they can't complete the content, they're wasting their own queue time.

And that's their own choice that they make. You aren't chosen to make the choice for them.

I can either

Or, option 3, you can leave the run and not force your will on someone else.

How would you feel if you kept getting matched with DPS who would only auto-attack during each of your roulette runs?

I'd start preforming my parties. Regardless, if someone's only autoattacking, there's problems there besides "Their DPS is too low." Not sure how many times I'll have to say this, but the biggest issue is not the people who see someone slapping themselves on follow while they don't play the game (which if they do, I'd consider that AFKing, and an auto-attack only person may be poorly botting which I'd file under cheating). The biggest issue is the people who simply see anything less than A4S-clear quality playing as being carried.

There's a reason that carries are sold for millions of gil.

Never seen anybody sell carries for anything I'd use DF for. Which is to say, I don't use DF for things like EX primals or raids except possibly the 24-man ones. And why don't I? Because I'm aware that there will be people in there that are going to just be bad, and proactively exercise my options to avoid them.

Shouldn't need to premake a party to finish Neverreap in a reasonable time.

Are you the objective judge of what's reasonable?

if you're really telling all the most competent people to just make premades

I'm not. I'm telling the people who don't want to deal with random people to make premades. Some of us competent people don't really care if we take 40 minutes in Neverreap or 20. A clear's a clear.

you're directly advocating for a DF pool of incompetent people.

At which point they either learn to swim or they sink, which is just as likely to increase average skill level of DF without having some random person arbitrarily take the decision on how valuable another person's queue time was upon themselves.

What kind of reputation do they want?

Ask them. And ask everybody what they think of the company, rather than asserting your own viewpoint as what their reputation is.

Mind telling me where they are?

Click on Settings at the top right. Go to the left under "My settings > My profile" and click "Edit Character". This gives you a list of all characters on your account. Anything in brown is displayed, anything grey is not. The one with the gold star is your "main". It's the same place you pick which jobs to display.

You really seem to think that preforming a party is magically going to keep underperformers out, don't you?

Of course not, if you're still taking random people that you don't know and don't really check up on beforehand, which I'd hope you would do if you were going to do anything serious where top-tier DPS really is quite important.

That's really your solution?

When I desperately need or want to clear Expert Roulette in 20- minutes, I make a FC group. I also generally queue with my husband as a DPS while I tank so I know at least one DPS will be fine. But then, as I said, I generally don't really care if Expert Roulette takes 20 minutes or 40 as long as we clear it.

Good job trying to extrapolate that out to everyone, though.

I wasn't trying to extrapolate it out to everyone. I said that the people who have significant issues can be seen without parsers. Anyone without a significant issue isn't generally worth calling out or necessarily preventing the group from clearing unless it's top-tier content, in which case I'd expect at least one person already has a parser and doesn't need a built-in one.

Your argument was that you've never done content in duty finder where dps prevented completing it, therefore such content doesn't exist.

That wasn't my argument at all. My statement was that I haven't been stuck on duty finder content due to low DPS. I didn't say that everything that you can queue for in duty finder didn't have DPS checks.