DRG rant, is it really only just me? (Melee DPS balance).

[Ixsiehn]

EDIT: I no longer fully believe what I mentioned in this post, but I am leaving this up for context and for further discussion

Having mained melee since 2.0 (mostly on DRG, and NIN, but enough on MNK to know ins and outs), I've always found that SE and the community seems to love their baby MNK and really hate their unwanted child DRG (and NIN now, with the coming of NINs).

I personally feel that monks DID NOT need the 3% damage buff to greased lightning. (Yes, incoming downvotes from MNKs, you'll see)

Warning: Super long read, TLDR at the bottom.

Brief history of the melee classes back in ARR pre-NIN:

in terms of ST DPS:

MNK > DRG

in terms of AoE DPS:

DRG > MNK

in terms of flexibility:

MNK > DRG

Dragoons have a rigid rotation, you cannot fit dots in between your combos as they are running out.

in terms of Difficulty to learn:

MNK > DRG

This one has been repeated many times everywhere, I agree, monks are harder to learn, their flexibility makes it harder to learn to play monks.

in terms of Difficulty to master:

DRG > MNK

The lack of flexibility of DRGs make them harder to master in a raid setting, not to mention how missing a positional means no buff, debuff or main DoT.

Switching targets as a dragoon mid combo means you're doing sub-optimal combo DPS on the second target until you are done with the combo then you can start setting debuffs (which are ironically part of your combo).

Monks switch target a lot easier as their rotation is flexible, switching targets also has no impact on the timing in which they can apply dots, as they can easily do it mid-combo.

I dont think I need to mention the DRG jumps in raids right?

in terms of Utility:

MNK > DRG

DRGs get disembowel, which buffed bards. MNKs get dragon kick, which buffs other monks and reduces incoming spell damage (oh hey, 95% of all raid damage is spell damage!!). MNKs also have superior mantra.

MNKs have both a stun AND a silence, yes, the silence is harder to pull off than on a BRD, but its possible to do so, and was needed in T1 and T2, when our bard didn't turn up for raid, we had our MNK do a silence. It is a DPS loss, but if we had no MNK and instead had a DRG, we'd have to cancel raid.

And then NINs came, which completely outclassed DRG in EVERY possible way, except for AoE DPS. (Pre-DRG buff and NIN nerf).

in terms of ST DPS:

MNK > NIN > DRG

in terms of AoE DPS:

DRG > MNK >= NIN

in terms of flexibility:

MNK > NIN >= DRG

NINs have the same flexibility issue as DRGs, but their lack of the need of positionals makes NIN slightly better than DRGs in that regard.

in terms of Difficulty to learn:

MNK > DRG > NIN

NIN plays like a DRG who doesnt have jump, and instead merges all the jumps into a weird mini-game (Which coughs out greased lightning among other things).

in terms of Difficulty to master:

DRG > MNK > NIN

NIN's only difficulty is fighting latency, and they have a minor version of the flexibility issues of DRGs, but they don't have the extremely punishing positional requirements of DRGs and definitely not as numerous as MNKs (only 1 total every 60 seconds). Their main debuff and dot ability placements are much easier to access within the combo than as compared to DRGs too. (MNKs are flexible, the furthest GCD a monk will ever have for being out of reach of a skill is 2 unless you screw up your rotation so badly you need to apply 2 buffs/debuffs immediately, but even then, it's rare that'd you'd need 4 GCDs or more).

in terms of Utility:

NIN > MNK > DRG

Ninjas came in with major utility options: Goad for the other TP DPS, trick attack for raid wide DPS increase, slashing damage debuff (if theres no WAR), and the ability to stun or silence (more easily than a monk can).

The track record so far makes me wonder if SE knows how to even balance the melee DPS, then came with what would be a "fix" but made me question why on some changes:

• DRGs finally get the much needed QoL and DPS buff (they still do less DPS than MNKs, who have been reigning as Top DPS easier to master melee DPS the ENTIRE duration of ARR EDIT: I stand corrected, DRGs beat MNKs after the buff)
• DRGs no longer have stupidly punishing positional requirements, making them actually easier to master than monks overall (the unflexibility is still a thing, but monks still had GL to contend with).
• NIN got a TP cost nerf, which made goad virtually useless. The only reason goad was useful was because ninja was the least TP hungry melee DPS, so they could goad the other melee, making it so that the BRD wont have to TP song so soon, with the TP cost nerf, ninja skyrocketed to becoming the most TP hungry melee DPS, making it so that before they would even use Goad, the BRD will have to TP song.
• NIN got a minor dps nerf.

and then come HW:
n terms of ST DPS:

DRG > MNK > NIN

Take note, this is referring to Dummy ST DPS

in terms of AoE DPS:

MNK > DRG > NIN

in terms of flexibility:

MNK > NIN > DRG

DRGs get hit even hard with the HW changes, with everything that's new contributing to making DRGs even more unflexible than it already is, adding a 4th (RNG) attack to our combo, and the new BotD mechanic giving us a GL that is possibly much more punishing, or much less punishing depending on when BotD was dropped, and requires the dragoon to foresee 45-60 seconds to know if it's worth using that BotD (in most cases, the dragoon wont know until they experience the fight enough times to get the timing down.)

in terms of Difficulty to learn:

DRG > MNK > NIN

DRGs became much harder to learn now thanks to the new rotation and geirskogul's interaction with BotD (which makes BotD much harder to maintain for new comers, unless they completely do not use geirskogul at all, which is a significant DPS loss). NIN barely changed at all, MNKs gained more QoL boosts that makes them easier to play.

in terms of Difficulty to master:

DRG > MNK > NIN

the QoL boosts to monk allowing them to drop GL for burst and then charging chakra during downtime made them even more flexible to the situation, now Downtimes lasting longer than they can get GL3 back aren't as punishing as before. DRGs suffer from old GL syndrome and they need to know to not re-apply BotD before a downtime (e.g. A1S), or they will have no BotD when the boss comes back (a fucked up BotD can make a dragoon have to wait for 45 seconds, a fucked up GL is at most 8 base GCDs in length, as their GCDs get shorter and shorter as they slowly stack their GL stacks.[this is not even counting PB which can get them all 3 back if needed])

That being said, the lack of flexibility and the difficulty to actually perform a DRGs optimal rotation during an actual raid makes DRGs and MNKs equal out in actual raids. (MNKs doing more dps thanks to battle litany buff if they are in the same raid)

In terms of utility:

NIN > DRG >= MNK

The only 1 new utility DRG got was battle litany, a 15% crit chance buff over 20 seconds, but at a 180 seconds CD. This is inferior to trick attack in ST fights (60 seconds CD vs 180 seconds CD), but superior in AoE phases, it also applies to healing (but heals dont really rely on crit as much as crit is a bonus boost to heals). This is pretty much an offensive/defensive hybrid equivalent to mantra, except its used for offense much more than defense, since relying on Battle Litany to heal is stupid. Mantra on the other hand, helps healers with heals in heal intensive phases (and has much less CD), this also allows healers to worry less about healing and to DPS more often on progression. Battle Litany is still a superior offensive CD to mantra, but mantra is a superior defensive CD, and indirectly boosts raid dps too.

The only utility i find that DRGs have over MNKs now is disembowel, since the change to LB, stacking MNKs isn't as great, and DRKs now apply the spell damage debuff too.

And then, SE had to screw the MNK/DRG balance by giving monk superior ST DPS yet again.

MNKs now excel in ST, AoE DPS and defensive utility.

NINs excel in offensive utility, they cry alone at night about their DPS, and then DRGs are now the "disembowel bitch" for BRDs, at least they did much better DPS than back in 2.0, but requires much more effort.

TLDR
MNKs always top DPS from start til end despite being easier to master and still have the best defensive utility. NINs have the best offensive utility all around, but suffer from lacking DPS. DRGs master nothing, they lost their "Top AoE DPS (useless niche)" to MNKs, and have inferior offensive utility to NINs.

When will SE stop babying MNKs?

[RapBreon]

It's a big'un

DRGs in HW pretty much are the inverse of MNKs. MNKs have (currently) superior sustained damage, both single target and multi. DRGs have superior burst, both single target and multi. I am OK with this.

The niche being MNK's ramp up and dismantle a target(s) with consistency. DRG's niche being they blow their load and kind of plod around for a bit. I see nothing overtly wrong with this design choice. NINs are inferior at both; not much on single target, but a lot on multi target.

As for utility, MNKs are inferior. It's the whole reason they haven't been in the 'ideal' Alex Savage set-up. DRKs can now apply their debuff. Every group needs a BRD/MCH and Battle Litany is great, coupled with their still very high DPS makes them essentially mandatory. NINs, while inferior in terms of dealing damage across the board, bring TA and Goad (TA especially) which utility wise is godly.

So what do MNKs bring? Mantra and the highest sustained DPS. Mantra is pretty good, it's a perk that makes your healers lives a tad easier. But here's the rub, their DPS isn't so high that it makes up for the gains in utility the others bring. Before the 3% buff, they were behind (assuming a few variables were even) DRGs by like ~50dps? Now they're ahead by about ~50dps? In a vacuum, that's great balancing IMO. However, disembowel alone provides more DPS for a MCH/BRD than that.

You can't write this kind of gain off - like you did in another thread - by conflating direct increases in DPS with indirect increases in DPS (like you tried to with Mantra). They fall into completely separate categorizations in terms of utility (which you recognize by claiming MNKs are 'defensively superior' utility wise). It is this direct gain in DPS that the DRG grants that make them superior to MNKs currently.

TL;DR: DRGs are still top-dog.

[Aomine1992]

Meh they only issue I have with my DRG is that everytime I pop up in a random group ppl are like oh god a DRG just because there are soooo many awful ones and then maybe the fact that I press a bazillion buttons to keep my DPS at the top and you have room for dots like phlebotomize or even fracture trust me you have more then enough skill speed to finish a combo set before you need to recharge the dreadful heavy thrust...

[Ixsiehn]

stuff

Actually, MNKs had superior Burst AoE even in ARR (thanks to PB), although their overall AoE was definitely inferior outside of the burst phase.

Now in HW, their AoE is boosted further with the new skills they get but DRGs remained the same, making monks actually overtake dragoons in this regard (and with their flexibility, allows monks to weave between ST and AoE with ease, dragoons need to cut their ST combo in favor of AoE and drop BotD, possibly dropping a lot of ST DPS depending on how long you have left on the CD of BotD). Monks definitely have a higher AoE sustained DPS now.

I will agree that monks have inferior utility overall. Their utility is defensive, but mantra pretty much only makes up for Battle litany, and dragon kick's defensive utility was taken up by DRKs.

However, in terms of ST DPS balance, MNKs have a superior controlled burst than DRGs, the problem with MNK burst is that they lose GL3 at the end of it, so they only use it before a downtime where they cannot maintain GL3, or when they REALLY need the burst. DRGs on the other hand, only have a burst on their opening at around the 9th-10th GCD then their DPS drops off over time. I was fine with the balance BEFORE the changes, because DRGs, although having superior dummy ST DPS, cannot perform their optimal rotation in a raid setting thanks to various mechanics, which impacts dragoons more than it impacts MNKs or NINs. In that sense, MNKs and DRGs pull about equal DPS in an actual raid setting (MNKs probably needed the QoL boosts, but not the QoL AND Damage boosts)

The part i mentioned about mantra in the other thread was mostly just putting it out there. Ultimately mantra is a defensive cooldown, I don't intend to propagate that as a DPS utility.

EDIT: @Aomine

not complaining about having the time to fit DoTs into rotation, i know they are there, the flexibility however, is another issue when target switching, if a target will die in ~25 seconds, MNKs can switch to it and immediately apply DoTs, if DRGs are mid combo, they need to finish their combo in the next 1-3 GCDs before applying the DoT, thats about 2.4-7.2 seconds off the DoT ticks, a DPS loss.

[Ephier]

TLDR

MNKs always top DPS from start til end despite being easier to master and still have the best defensive utility. NINs have the best offensive utility all around, but suffer from lacking DPS. DRGs master nothing, they lost their "Top AoE DPS (useless niche)" to MNKs, and have inferior offensive utility to NINs.

When will SE stop babying MNKs?

You also have to remember MNKs are the most mechanically vulnerable melee in the game. If they lose GL for what ever reason their DPS plummets. NIN has 0 ramp up, just huton, DRG has 3 GCD ramp up in heavy thrust and disembowel, while MNK has a 9 gcd ramp up without PB.

Also MNKs defensive utility was blown out the water when DRK was introduced, so all they bring to the table now is their 20% mantra, which is useful, but not good enough to guarantee them a slot.

Also while MNK was top DPS on dummy, in coil NIN and DRG stomped all over them just due to fight design.

Also do remember, MNK only buffs itself, while DRG buffs the ranged DPS. Do not underestimate how important disembowel is for ranged.

[Ixsiehn]

You also have to remember MNKs are the most mechanically vulnerable melee in the game. If they lose GL for what ever reason their DPS plummets. NIN has 0 ramp up, just huton, DRG has 3 GCD ramp up in heavy thrust and disembowel, while MNK has a 9 gcd ramp up without PB.

Erm no, DRGs have BotD, which can take up to seconds to 45 (!) seconds to get back, which is the equivalent to GL. And it's more roughly equivalent to ~8 un-buffed GCDs for monks, since your GCD gets progressively faster as you slowly stack up GL

Also MNKs defensive utility was blown out the water when DRK was introduced, so all they bring to the table now is their 20% mantra, which is useful, but not good enough to guarantee them a slot.

I agree with this.

Also while MNK was top DPS on dummy, in coil NIN and DRG stomped all over them just due to fight design.

NIN maybe on T12 that's about it, and DRGs were NEVER ever ahead of monks in any coil fight. DRGs were only superior in primals thanks to all the downtime, now DRGs are even inferior to MNKs on primals thanks to monks having tools to mitigate the loss of DPS during downtime whereas dragoons get the old GL issue.

Also do remember, MNK only buffs itself, while DRG buffs the ranged DPS. Do not underestimate how important disembowel is for ranged.

Not underestimating this, and I agree that DRGs have better utility atm, its just unfair that MNKs are better at EVERYTHING else. and DRGs are even outclassed by ninjas in utility, so its not like they have anything to write home about. Ninjas needed the slight DPS buff, not monks.

[RapBreon]

Actually, MNKs had superior Burst AoE even in ARR (thanks to PB), although their overall AoE was definitely inferior outside of the burst phase.

DRGs in HW

I will agree that monks have inferior utility overall. Their utility is defensive, but mantra pretty much only makes up for Battle litany, and dragon kick's defensive utility was taken up by DRKs.

Even in the best of circumstances where that Mantra allows the healer(s) to get an extra stone (holy might get close) or two off; it's not even close to Battle Litany in terms of overall DPS gained.

However, in terms of ST DPS balance, MNKs have a superior controlled burst than DRGs, the problem with MNK burst is that they lose GL3 at the end of it, so they only use it before a downtime where they cannot maintain GL3, or when they REALLY need the burst.

I can see this getting into a hair-splitting contest about the length of burst windows. Even if a MNK used tornado kick, their burst is defs not higher than a DRGs on average.

DRGs on the other hand, only have a burst on their opening at around the 9th-10th GCD then their DPS drops off over time.

If your opening burst is coming at the 9th GCD I think you might be doing something wrong. Mine starts at my 5th and I can't double weave on my ping.

I was fine with the balance BEFORE the changes

Of course you were, you were the undisputed king of melee DPS in every area, minus sustained AoE.

because DRGs, although having superior dummy ST DPS, cannot perform their optimal rotation in a raid setting thanks to various mechanics, which impacts dragoons more than it impacts MNKs or NINs.

Well, I've played both MNK and DRG at 60. Doing Sav with DRG so more experienced with it in general. But I find the mechanics of Alexander fuck with my MNK far more than my DRG. But that could be mostly due to experience. You also so much more control when BoTD drops and how it interacts with mechanics. MNKs get 14 seconds and that's it, they have to begin from scratch (minus PB on 180sec cool-down) if mechanics demand it fall off.

The MNK I used to play with beat me on Faust (by about 10DPS) but I destroyed him on Oppressors because I had far more control over my buffs than he did.

Regardless, the points you contested wasn't really the important one.

The important one was that DRGs are more desirable than MNKs regardless of their DPS difference - precisely because they difference is not huge relative to the utility provided by the DRG.

[Ephier]

Erm no, DRGs have BotD, which can take up to seconds to 45 (!) seconds to get back, which is the equivalent to GL. And it's more roughly equivalent to ~8 un-buffed GCDs for monks, since your GCD gets progressively faster as you slowly stack up GL

BOTD has a much longer maximum timer than GL as well.

.

NIN maybe on T12 that's about it, and DRGs were NEVER ever ahead of monks in any coil fight. DRGs were only superior in primals thanks to all the downtime, now DRGs are even inferior to MNKs on primals thanks to monks having tools to mitigate the loss of DPS during downtime whereas dragoons get the old GL issue.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=722665224

I'll leave that there for your viewing pleasure. Those are by no means bad players.

Not underestimating this, and I agree that DRGs have better utility atm, its just unfair that MNKs are better at EVERYTHING else. and DRGs are even outclassed by ninjas in utility, so its not like they have anything to write home about. Ninjas needed the slight DPS buff, not monks.

MNK = Max DMG unnecessary utility. DRG = High DPS and arguably necessary utility. NIN = Ok DPS with amazing utility.

People focus too much on their own numbers instead of looking at how much you actually bring to the group. Litany on openers is godlike along with disembowel puts DRG ahead of MNK. This game is a team effort (in raid setting at least) not an individual one. And while individual DPS is important, looking at how much you add to raid DPS is actually a factor in deciding your top DPS one would assume.

[Ixsiehn]

On the AoE bit, i was saying that MNKs despite having inferior AoE back in ARR already had superior burst AoE with PB, though most monks dont use PB during AoE phases (thanks to fights not starting with AoE on the get go), they still have that option if PB came up during an AoE phase.

Even in the best of circumstances where that Mantra allows the healer(s) to get an extra stone (holy might get close) or two off; it's not even close to Battle Litany in terms of overall DPS gained.

I agree, mantra I repeatedly mentioned mantra as a DEFENSIVE cooldown, i will repeat again that i mentioned what I did in the other thread just to "put it out there", and am not going to propagate mantra as a DPS utility.

I can see this getting into a hair-splitting contest about the length of burst windows. Even if a MNK used tornado kick, their burst is defs not higher than a DRGs on average.

It may just be my small sample size observations on the numerous Bisex runs i did, where i parse spine only damage. A well played MNK will always out burst a well played DRG during that phase.

If your opening burst is coming at the 9th GCD I think you might be doing something wrong. Mine starts at my 5th and I can't double weave on my ping.

The opening burst starts on the 5th, but it only makes up for all the build up at around the 8th-9th, i mentioned 9th to be safe. That is the peak of DRG's burst. (DRG rotation is rigid, theres not much difference in how most DRGs play unless they're just playing it wrong)

Of course you were, you were the undisputed king of melee DPS in every area, minus sustained AoE.

king of ST DPS, not the king of utility (NIN holds it) or AoE (MNK holds it), and still competing for that "king" spot with MNKs during actual raids pre-buff anyway.

Well, I've played both MNK and DRG at 60. Doing Sav with DRG so more experienced with it in general. But I find the mechanics of Alexander fuck with my MNK far more than my DRG. But that could be mostly due to experience.

You can mitigate most of the "downtime" with proper use of stance switching, chakra charging, and if the downtime is long enough to drop GL3, weave tornado kick before the downtime. These are tools DRGs didnt get, and its something we manage by using less geirskoguls. But during the actual downtime, we got nothing to pad the DPS loss.

Adds switching definitely impacts DRG more than it impacts MNK no matter how you look at it (its always the case since ARR).

Regardless, the points you contested wasn't really the important one.

The important one was that DRGs are more desirable than MNKs regardless of their DPS difference - precisely because they difference is not huge relative to the utility provided by the DRG.

which IMHO, could be fixed by having another blunt DPS (MCH being blunt would have been perfect), and their ST DPS levels were more or less equal in the raid environment before the buff.

[Hakmatic]

Is this real life right now.