DRG rant, is it really only just me? (Melee DPS balance).

[RapBreon]

It's a big'un

DRGs in HW pretty much are the inverse of MNKs. MNKs have (currently) superior sustained damage, both single target and multi. DRGs have superior burst, both single target and multi. I am OK with this.

The niche being MNK's ramp up and dismantle a target(s) with consistency. DRG's niche being they blow their load and kind of plod around for a bit. I see nothing overtly wrong with this design choice. NINs are inferior at both; not much on single target, but a lot on multi target.

As for utility, MNKs are inferior. It's the whole reason they haven't been in the 'ideal' Alex Savage set-up. DRKs can now apply their debuff. Every group needs a BRD/MCH and Battle Litany is great, coupled with their still very high DPS makes them essentially mandatory. NINs, while inferior in terms of dealing damage across the board, bring TA and Goad (TA especially) which utility wise is godly.

So what do MNKs bring? Mantra and the highest sustained DPS. Mantra is pretty good, it's a perk that makes your healers lives a tad easier. But here's the rub, their DPS isn't so high that it makes up for the gains in utility the others bring. Before the 3% buff, they were behind (assuming a few variables were even) DRGs by like ~50dps? Now they're ahead by about ~50dps? In a vacuum, that's great balancing IMO. However, disembowel alone provides more DPS for a MCH/BRD than that.

You can't write this kind of gain off - like you did in another thread - by conflating direct increases in DPS with indirect increases in DPS (like you tried to with Mantra). They fall into completely separate categorizations in terms of utility (which you recognize by claiming MNKs are 'defensively superior' utility wise). It is this direct gain in DPS that the DRG grants that make them superior to MNKs currently.

TL;DR: DRGs are still top-dog.

[Aomine1992]

Meh they only issue I have with my DRG is that everytime I pop up in a random group ppl are like oh god a DRG just because there are soooo many awful ones and then maybe the fact that I press a bazillion buttons to keep my DPS at the top and you have room for dots like phlebotomize or even fracture trust me you have more then enough skill speed to finish a combo set before you need to recharge the dreadful heavy thrust...

[Iagainsti]

Meh they only issue I have with my DRG is that everytime I pop up in a random group ppl are like oh god a DRG just because there are soooo many awful ones and then maybe the fact that I press a bazillion buttons to keep my DPS at the top and you have room for dots like phlebotomize or even fracture trust me you have more then enough skill speed to finish a combo set before you need to recharge the dreadful heavy thrust...

#lolDrg *cue applause/streamers/fireworks

[Ixsiehn]

stuff

Actually, MNKs had superior Burst AoE even in ARR (thanks to PB), although their overall AoE was definitely inferior outside of the burst phase.

Now in HW, their AoE is boosted further with the new skills they get but DRGs remained the same, making monks actually overtake dragoons in this regard (and with their flexibility, allows monks to weave between ST and AoE with ease, dragoons need to cut their ST combo in favor of AoE and drop BotD, possibly dropping a lot of ST DPS depending on how long you have left on the CD of BotD). Monks definitely have a higher AoE sustained DPS now.

I will agree that monks have inferior utility overall. Their utility is defensive, but mantra pretty much only makes up for Battle litany, and dragon kick's defensive utility was taken up by DRKs.

However, in terms of ST DPS balance, MNKs have a superior controlled burst than DRGs, the problem with MNK burst is that they lose GL3 at the end of it, so they only use it before a downtime where they cannot maintain GL3, or when they REALLY need the burst. DRGs on the other hand, only have a burst on their opening at around the 9th-10th GCD then their DPS drops off over time. I was fine with the balance BEFORE the changes, because DRGs, although having superior dummy ST DPS, cannot perform their optimal rotation in a raid setting thanks to various mechanics, which impacts dragoons more than it impacts MNKs or NINs. In that sense, MNKs and DRGs pull about equal DPS in an actual raid setting (MNKs probably needed the QoL boosts, but not the QoL AND Damage boosts)

The part i mentioned about mantra in the other thread was mostly just putting it out there. Ultimately mantra is a defensive cooldown, I don't intend to propagate that as a DPS utility.

EDIT: @Aomine

not complaining about having the time to fit DoTs into rotation, i know they are there, the flexibility however, is another issue when target switching, if a target will die in ~25 seconds, MNKs can switch to it and immediately apply DoTs, if DRGs are mid combo, they need to finish their combo in the next 1-3 GCDs before applying the DoT, thats about 2.4-7.2 seconds off the DoT ticks, a DPS loss.

[RapBreon]

Actually, MNKs had superior Burst AoE even in ARR (thanks to PB), although their overall AoE was definitely inferior outside of the burst phase.

DRGs in HW

I will agree that monks have inferior utility overall. Their utility is defensive, but mantra pretty much only makes up for Battle litany, and dragon kick's defensive utility was taken up by DRKs.

Even in the best of circumstances where that Mantra allows the healer(s) to get an extra stone (holy might get close) or two off; it's not even close to Battle Litany in terms of overall DPS gained.

However, in terms of ST DPS balance, MNKs have a superior controlled burst than DRGs, the problem with MNK burst is that they lose GL3 at the end of it, so they only use it before a downtime where they cannot maintain GL3, or when they REALLY need the burst.

I can see this getting into a hair-splitting contest about the length of burst windows. Even if a MNK used tornado kick, their burst is defs not higher than a DRGs on average.

DRGs on the other hand, only have a burst on their opening at around the 9th-10th GCD then their DPS drops off over time.

If your opening burst is coming at the 9th GCD I think you might be doing something wrong. Mine starts at my 5th and I can't double weave on my ping.

I was fine with the balance BEFORE the changes

Of course you were, you were the undisputed king of melee DPS in every area, minus sustained AoE.

because DRGs, although having superior dummy ST DPS, cannot perform their optimal rotation in a raid setting thanks to various mechanics, which impacts dragoons more than it impacts MNKs or NINs.

Well, I've played both MNK and DRG at 60. Doing Sav with DRG so more experienced with it in general. But I find the mechanics of Alexander fuck with my MNK far more than my DRG. But that could be mostly due to experience. You also so much more control when BoTD drops and how it interacts with mechanics. MNKs get 14 seconds and that's it, they have to begin from scratch (minus PB on 180sec cool-down) if mechanics demand it fall off.

The MNK I used to play with beat me on Faust (by about 10DPS) but I destroyed him on Oppressors because I had far more control over my buffs than he did.

Regardless, the points you contested wasn't really the important one.

The important one was that DRGs are more desirable than MNKs regardless of their DPS difference - precisely because they difference is not huge relative to the utility provided by the DRG.

[Ixsiehn]

On the AoE bit, i was saying that MNKs despite having inferior AoE back in ARR already had superior burst AoE with PB, though most monks dont use PB during AoE phases (thanks to fights not starting with AoE on the get go), they still have that option if PB came up during an AoE phase.

Even in the best of circumstances where that Mantra allows the healer(s) to get an extra stone (holy might get close) or two off; it's not even close to Battle Litany in terms of overall DPS gained.

I agree, mantra I repeatedly mentioned mantra as a DEFENSIVE cooldown, i will repeat again that i mentioned what I did in the other thread just to "put it out there", and am not going to propagate mantra as a DPS utility.

I can see this getting into a hair-splitting contest about the length of burst windows. Even if a MNK used tornado kick, their burst is defs not higher than a DRGs on average.

It may just be my small sample size observations on the numerous Bisex runs i did, where i parse spine only damage. A well played MNK will always out burst a well played DRG during that phase.

If your opening burst is coming at the 9th GCD I think you might be doing something wrong. Mine starts at my 5th and I can't double weave on my ping.

The opening burst starts on the 5th, but it only makes up for all the build up at around the 8th-9th, i mentioned 9th to be safe. That is the peak of DRG's burst. (DRG rotation is rigid, theres not much difference in how most DRGs play unless they're just playing it wrong)

Of course you were, you were the undisputed king of melee DPS in every area, minus sustained AoE.

king of ST DPS, not the king of utility (NIN holds it) or AoE (MNK holds it), and still competing for that "king" spot with MNKs during actual raids pre-buff anyway.

Well, I've played both MNK and DRG at 60. Doing Sav with DRG so more experienced with it in general. But I find the mechanics of Alexander fuck with my MNK far more than my DRG. But that could be mostly due to experience.

You can mitigate most of the "downtime" with proper use of stance switching, chakra charging, and if the downtime is long enough to drop GL3, weave tornado kick before the downtime. These are tools DRGs didnt get, and its something we manage by using less geirskoguls. But during the actual downtime, we got nothing to pad the DPS loss.

Adds switching definitely impacts DRG more than it impacts MNK no matter how you look at it (its always the case since ARR).

Regardless, the points you contested wasn't really the important one.

The important one was that DRGs are more desirable than MNKs regardless of their DPS difference - precisely because they difference is not huge relative to the utility provided by the DRG.

which IMHO, could be fixed by having another blunt DPS (MCH being blunt would have been perfect), and their ST DPS levels were more or less equal in the raid environment before the buff.

[Hakmatic]

Is this real life right now.

[FoxyAreku]

DRG's are better than monks right now, monks have more sustained, but dragoons buff the sustained damage of not only themselves, but of bards and machinists as well. And since you need a bard or machinist in every progression group...it's better to have a dragoon.

[Ggx]

What a horribly biased post. DRG harder to master than Monk or Ninja? lol

DRG has never been the hardest of the three melee to learn, or master. None of the melee are particularly hard, hell none of the classes in this game are hard to play at all, but DRG is especially not hard.

[RapBreon]

I agree, mantra I repeatedly mentioned mantra as a DEFENSIVE cooldown, i will repeat again that i mentioned what I did in the other thread just to "put it out there", and am not going to propagate mantra as a DPS utility.

Then it doesn't 'make-up' for it. It does something completely different and not comparable.

It may just be my small sample size observations on the numerous Bisex runs i did, where i parse spine only damage. A well played MNK will always out burst a well played DRG during that phase.

The spine is kind of a perfect storm for a MNK. He gets to start on it with 3x GL and gets to finish with a Tornado Kick + Forbidden Chakra. DRG has to start from HT. The spine favours MNK, for sure. But it's closer to the exception than the rule. At least from my experiences. And even then, I'm not overly convinced.

The opening burst starts on the 5th, but it only makes up for all the build up at around the 8th-9th, i mentioned 9th to be safe. That is the peak of DRG's burst. (DRG rotation is rigid, theres not much difference in how most DRGs play unless they're just playing it wrong)

My largest hit comes at the 5th GCD - Power surged jump + Wheeling/Fang. That's the peak for me. It peaks again at LS+FT+GK, but not as high.

You can mitigate most of the "downtime" with proper use of stance switching, chakra charging, and if the downtime is long enough to drop GL3, weave tornado kick before the downtime. These are tools DRGs didnt get, and its something we manage by using less geirskoguls. But during the actual downtime, we got nothing to pad the DPS loss.

I can't speak for A4. But I've dealt with every Alex Sav phase change by using Geirskogul until the buff drops off (after a Wheeling/Fang and Jumps are on CD) and just simply not using BoTD until the phase moves forward. If you time it right, you've lost nothing.

Oppressor jump ruins MNK, it doesn't do anything to us because BOTD should be off CD by then. Actually it's far better for us because it gives us time for B4B to come up. Which is far more valuable for us than a MNK. Time pads our DPS loss because we function on peaks and valleys. MNKs don't. Longer phase transitions favour us naturally. Presumably that is why they got a way to mitigate the disaster that is 30 second phase changes for them.

Alex 3 doesn't affect either too poorly. They keep GL3 you just press BOTD and still get your 3 Geirskoguls in.

We don't need the tools MNKs got because our buff functions very differently.