DRG rant, is it really only just me? (Melee DPS balance).

[Ixsiehn]

On the AoE bit, i was saying that MNKs despite having inferior AoE back in ARR already had superior burst AoE with PB, though most monks dont use PB during AoE phases (thanks to fights not starting with AoE on the get go), they still have that option if PB came up during an AoE phase.

Even in the best of circumstances where that Mantra allows the healer(s) to get an extra stone (holy might get close) or two off; it's not even close to Battle Litany in terms of overall DPS gained.

I agree, mantra I repeatedly mentioned mantra as a DEFENSIVE cooldown, i will repeat again that i mentioned what I did in the other thread just to "put it out there", and am not going to propagate mantra as a DPS utility.

I can see this getting into a hair-splitting contest about the length of burst windows. Even if a MNK used tornado kick, their burst is defs not higher than a DRGs on average.

It may just be my small sample size observations on the numerous Bisex runs i did, where i parse spine only damage. A well played MNK will always out burst a well played DRG during that phase.

If your opening burst is coming at the 9th GCD I think you might be doing something wrong. Mine starts at my 5th and I can't double weave on my ping.

The opening burst starts on the 5th, but it only makes up for all the build up at around the 8th-9th, i mentioned 9th to be safe. That is the peak of DRG's burst. (DRG rotation is rigid, theres not much difference in how most DRGs play unless they're just playing it wrong)

Of course you were, you were the undisputed king of melee DPS in every area, minus sustained AoE.

king of ST DPS, not the king of utility (NIN holds it) or AoE (MNK holds it), and still competing for that "king" spot with MNKs during actual raids pre-buff anyway.

Well, I've played both MNK and DRG at 60. Doing Sav with DRG so more experienced with it in general. But I find the mechanics of Alexander fuck with my MNK far more than my DRG. But that could be mostly due to experience.

You can mitigate most of the "downtime" with proper use of stance switching, chakra charging, and if the downtime is long enough to drop GL3, weave tornado kick before the downtime. These are tools DRGs didnt get, and its something we manage by using less geirskoguls. But during the actual downtime, we got nothing to pad the DPS loss.

Adds switching definitely impacts DRG more than it impacts MNK no matter how you look at it (its always the case since ARR).

Regardless, the points you contested wasn't really the important one.

The important one was that DRGs are more desirable than MNKs regardless of their DPS difference - precisely because they difference is not huge relative to the utility provided by the DRG.

which IMHO, could be fixed by having another blunt DPS (MCH being blunt would have been perfect), and their ST DPS levels were more or less equal in the raid environment before the buff.

[Hakmatic]

Is this real life right now.

[FoxyAreku]

DRG's are better than monks right now, monks have more sustained, but dragoons buff the sustained damage of not only themselves, but of bards and machinists as well. And since you need a bard or machinist in every progression group...it's better to have a dragoon.

[Ggx]

What a horribly biased post. DRG harder to master than Monk or Ninja? lol

DRG has never been the hardest of the three melee to learn, or master. None of the melee are particularly hard, hell none of the classes in this game are hard to play at all, but DRG is especially not hard.

[Ephier]

What a horribly biased post. DRG harder to master than Monk or Ninja? lol

DRG has never been the hardest of the three melee to learn, or master. None of the melee are particularly hard, hell none of the classes in this game are hard to play at all, but DRG is especially not hard.

Can not agree with that. As a MNK main from 2.4 and a NIN main from 2.4~2.55, those two are definitely easier to learn and master than DRG because they are no where near as strict rotation wise.

[Kaisersoke]

Can not agree with that. As a MNK main from 2.4 and a NIN main from 2.4~2.55, those two are definitely easier to learn and master than DRG because they are no where near as strict rotation wise.

As a dragoon main from 2.0 to 2.4, and a nin main onwards, with all leveled to 50 by 2.4, i disagree, and say that because of dragoons strict, straightforward rotation, that it is the easiest of the three to master, and that it has very little variation even now at 60. the strictness of dragoon optimal rotation is exactly why it will always be easiest to learn and master. you will never NOT know what your next move is unless its on your 4th tier random proc, and even then.. you either go flank or rear. dragoon is painfully easy, especially once learned

[Leonus]

As a dragoon main from 2.0 to 2.4, and a nin main onwards, with all leveled to 50 by 2.4, i disagree, and say that because of dragoons strict, straightforward rotation, that it is the easiest of the three to master, and that it has very little variation even now at 60. the strictness of dragoon optimal rotation is exactly why it will always be easiest to learn and master. you will never NOT know what your next move is unless its on your 4th tier random proc, and even then.. you either go flank or rear. dragoon is painfully easy, especially once learned

I also played all 3 - Nin was mad easy (mained it all the way till HW), and mnk only lets you do certain moves after each one (easily knowable which one is coming up based on timers). Lets be real, these "which job is harder to master than the next" is COMPLETELY SUBJECTIVE.

I found drg from 2.0-2.4 so fustrating that i left the job to play nin (which i found easier and more fun at the time). I never mained mnk too seriously because i found it far to easy (for me, hardest part was GL, which as long as you continued your rotation, you didn't drop unless fight mechanics dictated it.)

[RapBreon]

What a horribly biased post. DRG harder to master than Monk or Ninja? lol

DRG has never been the hardest of the three melee to learn, or master. None of the melee are particularly hard, hell none of the classes in this game are hard to play at all, but DRG is especially not hard.

Can I be your disciple?

[Leonus]

What a horribly biased post. DRG harder to master than Monk or Ninja? lol

DRG has never been the hardest of the three melee to learn, or master. None of the melee are particularly hard, hell none of the classes in this game are hard to play at all, but DRG is especially not hard.

This is completely subjective, and varies from person to person. Of the 3 melee to me, it was drg 》nin 》mnk in terms of difficulty. Again, it completely depends on the person. Like you said though, none of the melee are really that hard.

[RapBreon]

I agree, mantra I repeatedly mentioned mantra as a DEFENSIVE cooldown, i will repeat again that i mentioned what I did in the other thread just to "put it out there", and am not going to propagate mantra as a DPS utility.

Then it doesn't 'make-up' for it. It does something completely different and not comparable.

It may just be my small sample size observations on the numerous Bisex runs i did, where i parse spine only damage. A well played MNK will always out burst a well played DRG during that phase.

The spine is kind of a perfect storm for a MNK. He gets to start on it with 3x GL and gets to finish with a Tornado Kick + Forbidden Chakra. DRG has to start from HT. The spine favours MNK, for sure. But it's closer to the exception than the rule. At least from my experiences. And even then, I'm not overly convinced.

The opening burst starts on the 5th, but it only makes up for all the build up at around the 8th-9th, i mentioned 9th to be safe. That is the peak of DRG's burst. (DRG rotation is rigid, theres not much difference in how most DRGs play unless they're just playing it wrong)

My largest hit comes at the 5th GCD - Power surged jump + Wheeling/Fang. That's the peak for me. It peaks again at LS+FT+GK, but not as high.

You can mitigate most of the "downtime" with proper use of stance switching, chakra charging, and if the downtime is long enough to drop GL3, weave tornado kick before the downtime. These are tools DRGs didnt get, and its something we manage by using less geirskoguls. But during the actual downtime, we got nothing to pad the DPS loss.

I can't speak for A4. But I've dealt with every Alex Sav phase change by using Geirskogul until the buff drops off (after a Wheeling/Fang and Jumps are on CD) and just simply not using BoTD until the phase moves forward. If you time it right, you've lost nothing.

Oppressor jump ruins MNK, it doesn't do anything to us because BOTD should be off CD by then. Actually it's far better for us because it gives us time for B4B to come up. Which is far more valuable for us than a MNK. Time pads our DPS loss because we function on peaks and valleys. MNKs don't. Longer phase transitions favour us naturally. Presumably that is why they got a way to mitigate the disaster that is 30 second phase changes for them.

Alex 3 doesn't affect either too poorly. They keep GL3 you just press BOTD and still get your 3 Geirskoguls in.

We don't need the tools MNKs got because our buff functions very differently.