PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

[Faeon]

SNIP

Game testers or QA work on numbers by the book. They also don't look at ways to cheese fights. They test how the fight is intended to be done the way the devs made it. When the average player starts it usually is different.

[NFaelivrin]

Are we seriously going "if we give PLD a bit more usefulness in high end raids it'll be Incredibly OP and break the delicately balanced meta of 'No PLD, WAR only, Final Destination'"? Seriously?

[Reynhart]

I'm sure the game testers have played the game with different party make-ups for all content and has been cleared.

No, it's the mentality of "Being only viable means nothing when people look for the optimal way"
Can a party clear any content with a PLD ? Yes, of course, but they'll do faster (And, in this game, faster is always better) by picking any other tank.

People don't want PLD to become the "be all end all" of tanking, we just want our own utility. Since surviving can't be a real focus or else PLD would be mandatory, we need something else.
The problem with focusing on DPS is that, at best, only two tanks can be on top. Since they decided that the best OT DPS was also the best MT DPS (Which was not the case in 2.x), it's even reduced to one tank on top.

[Faeon]

Are we seriously going "if we give PLD a bit more usefulness in high end raids it'll be Incredibly OP and break the delicately balanced meta of 'No PLD, WAR only, Final Destination'"? Seriously?

I hope not either. But what I can say for sure though, if the game starts to go the direction where sorry your class is "X" and we don't take "X" because you suck. the dev will change it to be viable again. I don't think they want it to go back the way it was in 2.0 when WAR was in that boat and they redone the whole job.

[Reynhart]

I hope not either. But what I can say for sure though, if the game starts to go the direction where sorry your class is "X" and we don't take "X" because you suck. the dev will change it to be viable again. I don't think they want it to go back the way it was in 2.0 when WAR was in that boat and they redone the whole job.

The problem is how they'll make the change. You can indeed simply "fix" PLD by giving it a better DPS. But then, DRK will be the less viable, so they'll do the same...and suddendly, WAR will be less useful, etc, etc...pushing each tank in its own direction is a much more complex change, but it'll keep each of them relevant all the time.

[Faeon]

The problem is how they'll make the change. You can indeed simply "fix" PLD by giving it a better DPS. But then, DRK will be the less viable, so they'll do the same...and suddenly, WAR will be less useful, etc, etc...pushing each tank in its own direction is a much more complex change, but it'll keep each of them relevant all the time.

Ya that is correct, but how they will change it is the question I think we all are asking. Plus will the content be balanced with that in mind.

[Reynhart]

Plus will the content be balanced with that in mind.

When I posted my idea, the three tanks were balanced to offer the same overall DPS.
So, for any content based on a DPS check, the three setups would be as valuable.

As for surviving, you actually have a lot more room to balance it. That's exactly the case with WAR vs PLD for now. PLD mitigates slightly better than WAR, mainly thanks to Hallowed Ground. But the gap between the two is not enough so that you can derail from the usual setup of 2 tanks, 2 healers and 4 DPS. So, when looking at surviving, both tanks are on par. Same is true for DRK vs PLD, even for strong physical fights.

[Faeon]

When I posted my idea, the three tanks were balanced to offer the same overall DPS.
So, for any content based on a DPS check, the three setups would be as valuable.

As for surviving, you actually have a lot more room to balance it. That's exactly the case with WAR vs PLD for now. PLD mitigates slightly better than WAR, mainly thanks to Hallowed Ground. But the gap between the two is not enough so that you can derail from the usual setup of 2 tanks, 2 healers and 4 DPS. So, when looking at surviving, both tanks are on par. Same is true for DRK vs PLD, even for strong physical fights.

It would be interesting to see SE values on these figures.

[Wizhard]

So A3S was cleared with 2 warriors.
Eagerly awaiting the 2 paladin version...oh wait...

[MeeYow]

If PLD had the same DPS as DRK, DRK would still be taken for 3/4 floors because of its better/more frequent magic cooldowns and ability to reduce raid wide magic damage and allow nin/drg to be used.

WAR and DRK have superior utility through raid wide damage reduction. This is what PLD is supposed to have on its side as the "utility" or "defence based" tank but currently it simply doesn't. Veil is lacklustre due to its cooldown, clemency is far too slow and/or expensive for what is - little more than a basic cure. Cover is incredibly useful but this is far outweighed by the fact it is only useful at very gimmicky times.

Hallowed of course is often bought up as utility and is job defining but it is usually pidgeonholed into filling in for a gap in cooldowns because PLD cooldowns are generally longer than the other two jobs, at least useful ones for current content (See; first week A1S PLDs having nothing left for the final buster, DRK and WAR don't even need their invincibility cooldowns as vengeance/IB and Dark mind were always up)

Let's not even go into WARs slashing debuff.

If tank busters were physical or auto attacks weren't trivially weak/infrequent (seriously more frequent boss AAs SE, both for shields and blood price) PLD may be considered to have a slight edge over DRK defensively but the superior offence and AoE prevention mean DRK still has something on its side. WAR meanwhile barely even notices the change because it's buster cooldowns don't care about damage type.

For current magic based raids we have:

DPS
WAR>DRK>PLD

Utility
WAR>DRK>PLD

Buster Mitigation
DRK>WAR>PLD

PLD is currently in a sad situation where it is bottom in mitigation, DPS and raid utility for most of the floors. Partly because of the prevalence of magic damage, but making busters physical still leaves it behind in 2/3. This seems fair though, 3 tanks, 3 rough areas in which they can specialize, have one excel in each without having to differentiate by damage type.

Having one magic and one physical tank is absolutely pitiful design when your bosses only use one type of buster, one of the two is GARUNTEED to underperform every raid cycle, this time round it hit hard because the class that under-performs doesn't even have the damage to reclaim some of its lost ground. Flatten/Flare breath was a much better design.