It's Time To Wake up

[Miscreant]

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There's no point arguing with this guy Dreamer, he's got one job that's 50 or above and it's kitted out with i145 gear...he's talking like he has expansive knowledge about this game and spouting nonsense, he hasn't done any of the end game and more than likely doesn't know how to push his own job to it's full potential, the type of guy I will out dps in my Ex Roulette even though I'm only a "healer" as he puts it.

Seriously It's like us arguing with a Conductor about music composition back when we were still in nappies listening to the Wheels on the Bus.

[DreameR7g]

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Conceded on the definition of debate. However, it IS a fact you used a logical fallacy to try to prove yourself correct, as I just proved with the link.

As far as it being a bar room brawl, I don't see it as such. I see people getting heated because egos and pride being bruised, taking everything way too personal but its not much of a brawl.

I agree there is too much heat in the room, though. Sometimes, you need to just chill and let logic take over. Everybody is going to be passionate in what they believe to be true but belief falls in the way of an objective reality.

Edit @ Miscreant: There's always a point to debate with someone. I can tell Fendred is intelligent and so I decided to appeal to the logic within him rather than getting heated over opinion. Let's not get personal with this. There's no reason to other than trying to make yourself seem better than you actually are.

[Fendred]

@Miscreant. Except that isn't my first lvl 60 character. I think you can see my other characters on my profile if you click on my portrait or name. At least I think that is how it works.

Edit: Look under my character's tab. The other character is the one I played since release. This is just an alt I created due to the inventory system forcing me into playing a second character. Better than throwing out hours of grind work collecting vanity sets.

Also, Dream is acting in the capacity of a troll or forum bully. He jumped into an argument where I was defending myself from another poster's insinuations. If you just go back a few pages, you can see where it all started. Sophisticated terminology or not, he is using it like a club rather than its intended purpose.

[Quinlan]

I agree with the OP on skill bloat. Without macros I have over 40 buttons that are just my Job skills and essential stuff. That's after removing a bunch of convenience stuff to clear out bars. That is just ridiculous! I don't want just 2, 4, or 8 buttons, but damn man... 40?! Some people have way more than that with their macros and such.

I agree that the class system needs to be revamped. Go with full Jobs (wouldn't take much to update the quest text or don't even. You're called a Gladiator til you become a Paladin. Don't need cross class skills. The only "essential" one is Swiftcast for casters, build that into the jobs. Its clunky and confusing. You could get rid of tons of stuff just by removing that system.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

I agree with the OP on skill bloat. Without macros I have over 40 buttons that are just my Job skills and essential stuff. That's after removing a bunch of convenience stuff to clear out bars. That is just ridiculous! I don't want just 2, 4, or 8 buttons, but damn man... 40?! Some people have way more than that with their macros and such.

I agree that the class system needs to be revamped. Go with full Jobs (wouldn't take much to update the quest text or don't even. You're called a Gladiator til you become a Paladin. Don't need cross class skills. The only "essential" one is Swiftcast for casters, build that into the jobs. Its clunky and confusing. You could get rid of tons of stuff just by removing that system.

How do you have over 40 o.o I main drg, and don't even use up a full 36, with all my cross class abilities.

[Riardon]

I can agree only with some of them. Skill delay is one of them but I can hardly say it's problem unless you have too high ping like many EU and AUS players have. Skill bloat? Not at all if you say this for FFXIV then you never saw how many skills other MMORPGs have. I can say only that there are few skills from some classes which are never used by anyone. Class description and class/job are a bit poor to me. Can't say they break the game though it's just a poor implementation which was right in the minds of devs when they created them but now they are obsolete and they need a revamp. Stats are ok with the exception of some of them which have low impact in practice. I also do not agree with the removal of armor it's just ridiculous.

[DreameR7g]

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Uh huh.. sure I am. You can defend yourself all you'd like. However, when you try to defend yourself with illogical arguments, you are no better than the person you are defending yourself from.

And I can jump into a forum thread because you are in a public domain. If you feel abused by my words, I apologize. It is not my intention. However, just because you *feel* abused by me doesn't mean I am abusing you.

[Kaurie]

Uh huh.. sure I am. You can defend yourself all you'd like. However, when you try to defend yourself with illogical arguments, you are no better than the person you are defending yourself from.

And I can jump into a forum thread because you are in a public domain. If you feel abused by my words, I apologize. It is not my intention. However, just because you *feel* abused by me doesn't mean I am abusing you.

Hey guys.. I swear you've taken up 2 pages debating about debating. Let's bring this thread back on topic. K?

I disagree that skill bloat is a problem. However, one method which I've seen to tackle skill bloat is a card-deck type system. This is seen in both Wildstar and Guild Wars 1. For more clarification, you have a large 'deck' of skills and you can select a limited number of them to use. That will keep your bar smaller, while also keeping a large amount of skills in the game. I strongly dislike WoW and Guild Wars 2's attempt at reducing the number of skills available, and I find that makes things much more boring.

However, I don't think that many people in the FFXIV community would like the deck system. If we don't go that way, my vote is to leave as is.

As for Skill Delay, the issue is that instant stuff is not really instant (at least that's my issue). Like Benediction, Lustrate and Hallowed Ground - they go off you get your long CD or loss of Aetherflow, but the tank still dies. Either don't have it go off, or don't have the tank die. It's stupid that the skill goes off, the animation hits covers the tank, yet the server needs to think for a second and thus the tank dies. This is just one example, but it's frustrating. For me, as a SMN, I find it annoying that Bio takes a second to apply after casting, so it's not a good idea to queue in Bane right after Bio II, Miasma and Bio or only Bio II/Miasma are spread.

[Altanas]

I want to touch on some issues regarding Skill Bloat:

1. Cross class abilities essentially add 5 extra mandatory skills for each job's hotbar. This also worsens the need for macro's and thus the inevitability of skill delay. It would be better if cross class actions were turned into passive traits upon being cross classed. To make things more groovy, why not allow those traits to be "junctioned" to specific skills so a mix of pairing materias in 7 or pure junctioning in 8.

2. Any essential cross class skills like protect should be considered more thoroughly as in -> just delete the spell from the game, its basically a trait anyway given its cast every 30mins... Spells like protect should be more system based. Cast automatically on you by the server upon initiating a FATE, Dungeon, or upon reviving.


3. With level cap increases, I appreciate 50-60 "finished off rotations", but in the future level caps should bring traits which enhance or alter existing abilities (this would help with avoiding maintaining hotbars just for 50 sync content and having another set at XX level)

4. "Combos" should rotate the ability on a key so precious real estate is saved from all these 123 combos

[Aeyis]

@DreameR7g

Intellectual argument = debate. It does not refer to a fact with a truth value. You walked into a digital bar room brawl and decided to comment on how some of the angry slurs going back and forth constitute logical fallacies. Since trying to debate someone requires respect, that also means you'd want them to be at their best. No one here is at their best because we have too much heat in the room.

Starting a debate on fallacies is amusing to begin with, truth be told. Personally I rarely care to write fallacy free, as I ''respond in kind''.



Intellectual argument =/ debate, by the way.
Atleast not as debating is defined in modern days.
Debaters typically only care about their (faction) argument winning, whereas in intellectual argument the concern is more about looking at something from multiple angles and defining said something in a way that takes these angles into account as much as possible.

Aka: in debate one side> other (one side has to be ''proven right'')
Whereas in intellectual argument: both sides work together and decide what is ''proven right''


Debating is really just about bullshitting, if you ask me. (<- former debater)