If Paladin is "specialized in defense" shouldn't its defense be better always?

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

Nothing against you, but I think you honestly never main tanked raids as a warrior.

Warrior's GCD to GCD decisions are a bit more complicated than the rotate-the-3-combos-you-have-and-you're-set mentality PLD has.

Every Fracture used is a wrath/abandon stack you haven't built in the next 2.5s. Every FC you use is an IB you aren't gonna use. When you decide to use Unchained, you have to make sure you have enough time (17.5 seconds) to build wrath back up for IB before the buster is coming. Balancing the mitigation while doing the maximum DPS allowed on WAR is complicated. I will ignore the whole situationality of WAR's 3 combos because you end up using only 2.

For PLD, you have 3 combos you rotate alternatively! It really is down to GB > RoH > RA in that order. You may interchange them or replace one for another entirely but that's it. It has 1 optimal use that is irrelevant of the situation. Whatever combos you use do not affect how your other CDs offensively or defensively work. You can use your combos or not use them at all, as long as you press Rampart before the buster you're fine! And as I said, for DPS, you have 1 optimal rotation of GB > RoH > RA.

DRK is the same as PLD in that however it works its combos, it doesn't affect how their CDs work with the exception of Dark Mind (and lolDarkDance). But even then, Dark Mind can still work if you mess up your Dark Arts. You can still use Dark Mind for 15% mitigation, yes it's not 30%, but it's mitigation. All of the 6 oGCDs you have as DRK are just added DPS. They all come down to "if it's up, press". With the exception of C&S, any oGCD the DRK has is a direct DPS increase with no impact on defense.

If a WAR used Unchained or mistimed IB and Infuriate isn't up or even locked itself with the wrong GCD, that's a fully unmitigated hit. And if you wanna say you can use a CD, both DRK and WAR stack CDs with DM/IB. DRK still loses less. PLD has no such situation.

That's the whole point of complication that SpookyGhost and any WAR player refers to.

Now for stance dancing, PLD is clunky, not complicated. All the planning PLD has to do is "Finish this combo before I switch". If you want to, you can drop Shield Oath (just like Grit), finish your combo, then pop Sword Oath. None of the three tanks have difficult stance dancing mechanics. But out of the three tanks, the most impactful stance dancing comes to WAR because it loses/gains abilities.

I agree with you Dark Mind is powerful because of its short CD. It can either:
1- Be stacked with other CDs for more oomf on magic damage mitigation.
2- Fill in gaps before and between the other CDs if there is a hail of magic busters (Bismark Ex serpents!)

Soul Eater is there to alleviate the lack of passive mitigation from the shield. It helps by complementing the regen effects on you. So no, Soul Eater isn't translated into overhealing. (This is directed at SpookyGhost )

The problem with the old Inner Beast is the whole old WAR kit, not the scaling. WAR had to choose between more healing received or just healing received? lol... It was a joke. WAR had no means to survive big damage. Berserked, WAR could heal for about 2.8k HP out of its 6.2k at ilv90. That's almost 50% of its HP. But it doesn't matter how much you can heal with IB if you can't survive Death Sentence that could sometimes hit for 7k.

As for proactive vs reactive, that's personal opinion. I'd like to have the option for both, to proactively mitigate damage and then react according to how situations go.

[Reynhart]

Every Shield Swipe proc is a delay in GCD, can be a DPS increase or decrease depending if you spread your combo on several targets or if you have the time to finish your combo.
Every Stun can be a bit too late if the casting bar is short and your GCD is on.
Every stance change is a reset to your combo, meaning that your DoT and RoH will fall.
You need to think your cooldown rotation to match the frequence of tank busters so that you'll have one ready each time.
You'll need to follow the pattern of attacks to cast Clemency (even as a main tank) without being interrupted.

As for Dark Arts, it costs a lot of MP. Would you use it on each Dark Passenger, each Dark Mind, each Soul Eater and some Power Slash ? Or even with Adyssal Drain ? Do you need Carve and Spit to gain MP or do damage ?
Grit prevents you from using Blood Weapon, Darkside is needed to use several skills, and Soul Eater only heals you with Grit. You have plenty of things to think about if you want to max out DRK.
In fact, I'm pretty sure very few people had already managed to "perfect" DRK's gameplay.

Sorry, but stance dancing on WAR is still the more forgiving, just because it converts Wrath to Abandon and back, meaning you can prepare your damage in tank stance, and strike immediatly in DPS stance.

Yes, WAR's previous entire toolkit was far too behind. No mitigation skill, no oh-shit button and a tank stance which was massively behind the PLD.

I haven't done T5 as a WAR, but I suppose people didn't expect tank swaps, so WAR was in a really bad spot. With Vengeance and tank swapping (On top of Stoneskin and Adloquium), I'm sure it would have been perfectly viable.

Yes, "proactive vs reactive" is a personal opinion. It's just that WAR had Thrill Of Battle from the start, and Defiance is clearly a reactive skill, so I think it'd a more "coherent" toolkit.
And you'd still keep Vengeance and Raw Intuitionn which are proactive.

What would be better for WAR, though (Yes, some ideas to make WAR even better) is for WAR skills to not be "locked" behind Defiance/Deliverance. I'd like every Wrath/Andon skill to work like Equilibrium.
For example, under Defiance, Inner Beast would heal you, and under Deliverance, it would basically become Fell Cleave by gaining potency. This would allow WAR's toolkit to have the same number of skills than others job, and more room to make more interesting skill...because, let's be honest, Steel Cyclone and Decimate could be the same skill.

Wrath/Abadon could also be fused and only give a different buff depending on stance, since nothing gives specifically one or the other.

And again, lorewise, your Inner Beast is something that makes you unleash your rage to kill everything and very difficult to control. In-game, the only thing that makes WAR laugh maniacally is spamming Fell Cleave

[Phoenicia]

Every Shield Swipe proc is a delay in GCD, can be a DPS increase or decrease depending if you spread your combo on several targets or if you have the time to finish your combo.
Every Stun can be a bit too late if the casting bar is short and your GCD is on.
Every stance change is a reset to your combo, meaning that your DoT and RoH will fall.
You need to think your cooldown rotation to match the frequence of tank busters so that you'll have one ready each time.
You'll need to follow the pattern of attacks to cast Clemency (even as a main tank) without being interrupted.

I would agree with you if any of these scenarios were relevant or vital to your survival. They also have the following misconceptions:
- Doing your three combos, your GB and RoH are actually clipped by at least 1 GCD before they fall off. So you can Shield Swipe or change stances with a benefiting impact on DoT/Debuff timers.
- Since when was your stun relevant to raids? You can't bring something as irrelevant as this. And when your stun DOES work, it's 6s of 100% mitigation (similar to Hallowed Ground!!!). It is the longest stun in the game! Can be repeated with a DR for a total of 10s of stunned target!!
- Stance change is 1 GCD, plenty of time to refresh DoT/Debuff.
- WAR and DRK also have to consider their CD rotations as well. It's not just IB.
- You are not a self-healing tank, you are a pure mitigation tank. If you do manage to cast Clemency, you become ahead of WAR in terms of damage mitigated and healed. So I do not see the minus in here.

Are we grasping at straws here? I mean really?

As for Dark Arts, it costs a lot of MP. Would you use it on each Dark Passenger, each Dark Mind, each Soul Eater and some Power Slash ? Or even with Adyssal Drain ? Do you need Carve and Spit to gain MP or do damage ?
Grit prevents you from using Blood Weapon, Darkside is needed to use several skills, and Soul Eater only heals you with Grit. You have plenty of things to think about if you want to max out DRK.
In fact, I'm pretty sure very few people had already managed to "perfect" DRK's gameplay.

Again, none of these impact your defensively. The core mechanic of DRK is that you have only so much MP to use Dark Arts 4 or 5 times a minute. WAR can't even have enough Wrath/Abandon for 5 skills a minute! You choose which skills to boost based on situations. 9/10 times you will unload DAs for more DPS. What you are talking about is just integrating Dark Arts into the basic skills to achieve "perfect" DRK gameplay. Again, are you grasping at straws to make DRK sound difficult?

Sorry, but stance dancing on WAR is still the more forgiving, just because it converts Wrath to Abandon and back, meaning you can prepare your damage in tank stance, and strike immediatly in DPS stance.

So WAR losing Inner Beast is forgiving when the other two tanks keep all their defensive toolkit. It is also forgiving because it is the only one that locks you out for 10 seconds. Please.

It converting Wrath/Abandon is just a side effect. DRK keeps the rest of its MP when it turns on Grit and loses no MP when it turns it off. Why should WAR lose all its resources? It's already paying for the stance change by losing access to abilities and getting locked out for 10s.

Yes, WAR's previous entire toolkit was far too behind. No mitigation skill, no oh-shit button and a tank stance which was massively behind the PLD.

I haven't done T5 as a WAR, but I suppose people didn't expect tank swaps, so WAR was in a really bad spot. With Vengeance and tank swapping (On top of Stoneskin and Adloquium), I'm sure it would have been perfectly viable.

You do know Vengeance reducing damage by 30% was a 2.1 thing, right? Before 2.1 it was almost impossible for WAR to solo tank T5. But it was done with swaps. ShinRa (my FC at the time and Phoenix Server first T5) did T5 with swaps even after 2.1 came out.

WAR became the "better" solo tank for almost any encounter after 2.1.

Yes, "proactive vs reactive" is a personal opinion. It's just that WAR had Thrill Of Battle from the start, and Defiance is clearly a reactive skill, so I think it'd a more "coherent" toolkit.
And you'd still keep Vengeance and Raw Intuitionn which are proactive.

Thrill of Battle is meant to be used proactively before you receive the damage. It gives a 20% of your max HP as a buffer. Using it as a reactive heal is the wrong way to do it.

Defiance is useless if you're not at max HP or aren't receiving the heal. It has a more proactive nature than reactive.

Only reactive ability in the old WAR toolkit was Inner Beast which you used after big bursts to refill HP faster.

[Arannon]

*Snip*

RA, have it raise the paladin's spell casting speed.

*Snip*

You know, I really like the idea of Royal Authority giving a casting speed buff...that could totally be its "Thing". Could make it work like a mix of AST's Lightspeed and DRK's Dark Arts...next spell cast has its cast time reduced by 1-1.5s, fades on use...

Would also open the way for other "Spell" abilities down the line...like that Sultan's Brand skill whatsisname uses in the 60 PLD job quest...RA-ing into that for better AoE...wanna get real forward thinking, traits down the line to let us stack the buff multiple times, 1-1.5s reduced each time...instant clemencies every two RA's..hehe...give us longer casting standalone abilities with heavy damage and then let us whittle them down to reasonable with this off RA...

Yeah, I really like the idea of a cast speed buff off RA...

[Reynhart]

I would agree with you if any of these scenarios were relevant or vital to your survival.

Wow, wow, slow down. Nothing tied to Deliverance is "vital" to your survival. What you mentionned is how to push WAR in both mitigation AND dps.

- Doing your three combos, your GB and RoH are refreshed at least 1 GCD before they fall off. So you can Shield Swipe or change stances with no impact on DoT/Debuff timers.

On my PLD i184, I have 555 skill speed, which put my GCD at 2.42s. When I do RoH > GB > RA, STR Down falls during my next RoH and DoT is refreshed at 1s. So, another GCD and each would fall.

- You are not a self-healing tank, you are a pure mitigation tank.

Actually, the design team seems to disagree with you when they gave us Clemency...and PLD is still the one supposed to have knowledge of conjuring skill, mainly healing. And it's not like PLD's concept included healing spells in almost every FF entry.

Again, none of these impact your defensively.

Again, we're talking about pushing your job, not leisurely surviving encouters.

So WAR losing Inner Beast is forgiving when the other two tanks keep all their defensive toolkit.

Well, yes, because defense is supposed to be their specialty, and not WAR's...

It is also forgiving because it is the only one that locks you out for 10 seconds. Please.

Well, you don't stance dance on PLD or DRK for less than 10s too, it would be a DPS loss.

It converting Wrath/Abandon is just a side effect. DRK keeps the rest of its MP when it turns on Grit and loses no MP when it turns it off. Why should WAR lose all its resources?

Yeah, the "rest" of its MP...MP that are used for for a whole bunch of other skills and constantly drained. Ok, let WAR lose 1 stack. If would be enough to change stance dancing.

You do know Vengeance reducing damage by 30% was a 2.1 thing, right?

Yes, I know. And I specifically said to keep Vengeance as it is now. And with THAT Vengeance, T5 with swap tank "would have been" perfectly viable.

Defiance is useless if you're not at max HP or aren't receiving the heal. It has a more proactive nature than reactive.

Well, Defiance being useless "before" the damage is exatcly what a reactive skill heal. The major boost of Defiance is how it helps healing the WAR after he receives damage.
For example, if you don't have Defiance before the hit and put it on just after, it will help recovering from this hit with the healing boost. Thus, reactive.
Do the same with Grit or Shield Oath, you'd have taken the full damage and it doesn't help you recover from hit. Thus, proactive.

[RiisWolf]

[this among other issues]

It's because of how things work here and the "balances" to the classes.

It's a battle for threat first and protecting yourself which protects others as a result. And that is the biggest thing wrong about this whole system. It encourages less defense building because the offensive needed to be "defensive" blows. That's not considering everything else wrong with on the DPS's side on it.

Threat Multipliers are low. And enmity boosts in DPS stance are enough to over power PLDs if the DPS stance tank is stronger than the PLD. Worse when it's easy to out threat them as DPS.

PLDs get Shield Oath last, and which only proves how this works and what's needed for it to work, and so much worse. And it is one of the single most dumbest things yet in an MMO.

Because PLDs are weak, things always take longer, which puts more work on everyone involved. Fights last longer, DPS must burn more, and healers have to heal more, all while the tank is taking more hits cause the things are living longer than it would with a DRK or WAR. The extremes constantly break the game shoving the ugly truth about PLDs in your face, up your nose and down your throat, if you hadn't already caught on. It is just terrible.

[Phoenicia]

Wow, wow, slow down. Nothing tied to Deliverance is "vital" to your survival. What you mentionned is how to push WAR in both mitigation AND dps.

Yeah, but nothing you mentioned is tied to either mitigation nor DPS. Come on, Shield Bash? lol

On my PLD i184, I have 555 skill speed, which put my GCD at 2.42s. When I do RoH > GB > RA, STR Down falls during my next RoH and DoT is refreshed at 1s. So, another GCD and each would fall.

GB is 24s, that's 9.6 GCDs. You need 9 GCDs from GB to GB again, leaving you with 0.6s. Any additional Skill Speed should give you 1 more GCD.

Actually, the design team seems to disagree with you when they gave us Clemency...and PLD is still the one supposed to have knowledge of conjuring skill, mainly healing. And it's not like PLD's concept included healing spells in almost every FF entry.

In the Japanese version, the job is called "Knight". In every FF entry, no "Knight" had the ability to heal except the one in FF1, and it had Cure 1 only.

Again, we're talking about pushing your job, not leisurely surviving encouters.

Again, when added DPS does not conflict with added mitigation, there is no "complication".

Well, yes, because defense is supposed to be their specialty, and not WAR's...

Based on that logic, PLD losing DPS when stance dancing is totally justified since it's WAR's specialty, not PLD's.

Well, you don't stance dance on PLD or DRK for less than 10s too, it would be a DPS loss.

Grasping at straws. PLDs and DRKs pay 1 GCD as a penalty. WAR pays 10s lockout and loss of skills. That's my point. Do not try to twist it and make it as if PLDs and DRKs lose far more than WAR.

Yeah, the "rest" of its MP...MP that are used for for a whole bunch of other skills and constantly drained. Ok, let WAR lose 1 stack. If would be enough to change stance dancing.

That same MP is also constantly recovered.

I don't mind WAR losing 1 stack when swapping. There is only 1 scenario where we get full stacks then swap for FC, and that is during Unchained. Any defensive Scenario means we get 5 stacks > swap > Vengeance/Raw Intuition > Inner Beast. So no real changes in the big picture. But if it means to shut people like you up then fine. Sadly, it won't. People will still come online, log onto these forums and still complain that WAR can still stance dance at "no cost".

Yes, I know. And I specifically said to keep Vengeance as it is now. And with THAT Vengeance, T5 with swap tank "would have been" perfectly viable.

Old WAR tanked T5 with tank swap just fine.

Well, Defiance being useless "before" the damage is exatcly what a reactive skill heal. The major boost of Defiance is how it helps healing the WAR after he receives damage.
For example, if you don't have Defiance before the hit and put it on just after, it will help recovering from this hit with the healing boost. Thus, reactive.
Do the same with Grit or Shield Oath, you'd have taken the full damage and it doesn't help you recover from hit. Thus, proactive.

If you don't have Defiance before the hit, you lose 25% HP layer, hence taking more damage and require more healing than you would otherwise. No it's not reactive. It's a proactive stance. It's not something you activate because you took damage. It's something you activate in order to take less damage, not so you get healed more.

Any heal received while in Grit or Shield Oath is 5% (spells) or 20% (abilities) better than Defiance. So used reactively after receiving damage, those stances are still better.

Because PLDs are weak, things always take longer, which puts more work on everyone involved. Fights last longer, DPS must burn more, and healers have to heal more, all while the tank is taking more hits cause the things are living longer than it would with a DRK or WAR. The extremes constantly break the game shoving the ugly truth about PLDs in your face, up your nose and down your throat, if you hadn't already caught on. It is just terrible.

Oh please, it's not like PLD does 0 DPS and WAR does 3500.

PLD does 650~750 DPS while tanking. If you do less than that, reconfigure how you approach the encounter.

[Lone-wolfe-02]

Moreso, we have little-to-no purpose.

Hallowed ground. while this ability stays as it is you have no right to complain about pld being weak.

[nyttyn]

hallowed ground seriously ins't that good smh

it's 8-9 seconds (it's NEVER a full 10, the thing has a damnable animation delay before it activates that still ticks down the duration), on a cooldown so long it can only be used once per any given encounter, and maybe twice or thrice in a dungon if you pop it early.


I won't argue that it's somehow bad or not good, because it IS a good panic button, but it's not the damn moon and stars super slam dunk charles barkley that makes us the shining stars of defense which are completely immortal and don't ever die that people keep arguing it is.

[Reynhart]

GB is 24s, that's 9.6 GCDs. You need 9 GCDs from GB to GB again, leaving you with 0.6s. Any additional Skill Speed should give you 1 more GCD.

Yes, I need 9. Add one GCD, like Shield Swipe or change stance, that makes 10, and GB will fall, or even having to retreat for an AoE. And RoH falls earlier.

In the Japanese version, the job is called "Knight". In every FF entry, no "Knight" had the ability to heal except the one in FF1, and it had Cure 1 only.

FFI : Knight -> White Magic
FFIII : Knight -> White Magic
FF IV : Paladin -> White Magic
FF V : Knight -> No White Magic but this is the job than learn to use Two-handed to do massive damage. We can go that way, if you want
FF IX : Both Knight for Steiner and PLD for Beatrix. Either massive physical DPS or White Magic, pick one.
FF XI : Paladin -> White Magic up to Cure 4
FF XII International : Knight -> Advanced White Magic, up to Regen and Curaja, Bravery and Faith
FF Tactics : Knight -> Powerful debuff

Based on that logic, PLD losing DPS when stance dancing is totally justified since it's WAR's specialty, not PLD's.

Yes, of course they lose DPS, I'm fine with that. But good PLD try to minimize this loss by changing stance at the right moment.

Grasping at straws. PLDs and DRKs pay 1 GCD as a penalty. WAR pays 10s lockout and loss of skills. That's my point. Do not try to twist it and make it as if PLDs and DRKs lose far more than WAR.

No, it's not. If a PLD spent less that 10s after stance dancing, he's just playing bad, and can't be considered as a reference. It's a if you say "You see, PLD can stack Sheltron+Rampart+Sentinel+Convalesence to have a far more instant mitigation than WAR. Yes, but a PLD doesn't do that.

I don't mind WAR losing 1 stack when swapping. There is only 1 scenario where we get full stacks then swap for FC, and that is during Unchained.

You'll always lose one stack. Nowadays, you can build 4, then swap, then pop berserk for your fifth stack, and Fell Cleave immediatly. If you lose one, you'll need to burn an additional CD, which can bite you, of start a new combo.