If Paladin is "specialized in defense" shouldn't its defense be better always?

[SpookyGhost]

NIN already brings the slashing debuff, but it's a DPS loss for them to use it. If you brought DRK + PLD, you'd have to bring a NIN, but you'd still be doing less DPS than X + WAR w/ NIN. A solution would possibly be to just make it so that DE isn't a DPS loss, but then you've got fights like A1S where NIN can only be on one of the bosses... in which case WAR would still be better to bring...

Anyway I don't think WAR needs a nerf, but I think the solution for a Path/Delirium/RoH balancing has to be either nerfing Path's effectiveness or buffing RoH/Delirium's.

For Eye, giving everyone the debuff wouldn't really affect WAR at all, but it would make all compositions viable in terms of DPS and you wouldn't kill your NIN's with DRK + PLD.

[CGMidlander]

NIN already brings the slashing debuff, but it's a DPS loss for them to use it. If you brought DRK + PLD, you'd have to bring a NIN, but you'd still be doing less DPS than X + WAR w/ NIN. A solution would possibly be to just make it so that DE isn't a DPS loss, but then you've got fights like A1S where NIN can only be on one of the bosses... in which case WAR would still be better to bring...

Anyway I don't think WAR needs a nerf, but I think the solution for a Path/Delirium/RoH balancing has to be either nerfing Path's effectiveness or buffing RoH/Delirium's.

For Eye, giving everyone the debuff wouldn't really affect WAR at all, but it would make all compositions viable in terms of DPS and you wouldn't kill your NIN's with DRK + PLD.

If DE is made to be not a DPS loss, then Aeolian Edge would become a useless skill. It uses more TP than DE, has a positional for full potency, and has no extra effects.

[Isius]

PLD + DRK would reduce the most overall damage, but WAR would still be best for any fight where one damage source is focused over the other. A4S is an example where PLD + DRK would shine, but then you've got fights like A1S where double DRK would be optimal, or A3S where PLD + WAR would be optimal.

What I've learned from thinking about this, though, is that Path/Delirium/RoH balance is very finicky. It's like Jenga or something. However, I don't think Path is actually the real problem right now - while Path is great, it isn't what's stopping DRK + PLD groups from existing. The issue is the lack of a slashing debuff, which is why I think giving all the tanks Eye would allow for DRK + PLD to exist without feeling severely underpowered compared to the other comps.

My static comp has a drk/pld as the tanks. My friend as the drk, and myself as the pld. Honestly with both a drk, and pld in one group it kinda feels like a tug-o-war with pld feeling the need to mt since they do mitigate more dmg over the long term mainly from passive blocks from shields, but the drk feels even more inclined to mt with it's skills like Blood Price to regen mp, and also to active thier Reprisal skill after a suggessful parry for -10% dmg dealt from the enemy it is placed on, just like Storm's Path. There is some synergy between drk, and pld, but it does feel like we have to work a lot harder to make stuff work.

Now it is possible to take less dmg with a drk/pld combo from Reprisal -10% all dmg/Delirium-10% magic dmg/Halone -10% physical dmg, but it sure takes a lot more effort to have all those up at the right time, and also remember Reprisal is a skill the is hidden behind rng, and also has a cd for 30secs, but last for 20secs, so you could have Reprisal -10% all dmg mitigation for 40secs out of a minute in the extreme ideal scenario. But also again remember this dmg mitigation relies on rng, and the other 2 tanks applying thier -10% dmg mitigation moves, and there are a few other things drk/pld can do together aswell. But all in all you get a extra -10%magic or physical reducation depending on the class you are missing from a war/pld or war/drk comp, but lose out on 20secs of -10% all dmg mitigation in extreme ideal situtations. war/pld and war/drk is just a easier set up plus you get +10% slashing with a war.

I would like to see drk/pld as jobs get more abilities that gear them more for ot spot, more so for drks, since they don't really have much, since some of thier skills are lock away in needing to be the mt to use them.

[RiisWolf]

2. WAR + WAR would be the worst defensive comp imaginable. But I guess it would make up for it with high DPS? I dunno.

I think double DRK is worse. They don't have utilities to support the other, unless the foe is a magic user, but even then it's made worse when a monk is around to dragon kick it.

[RiisWolf]

Anyway I don't think WAR needs a nerf, but I think the solution for a Path/Delirium/RoH balancing has to be either nerfing Path's effectiveness or buffing RoH/Delirium's.

Yeah WARs don't need nerfs, everyone else needs a buff. Otherwise nothing gets fixed. D:

[Anger]

I think double DRK is worse. They don't have utilities to support the other, unless the foe is a magic user, but even then it's made worse when a monk is around to dragon kick it.

Double of any class is generally not a good idea because the limit break build up is slower. (unless its easy content)

[Cygsiulle]

instead of looking at their skills, shouldn't we look at their shield? PLD should be prepared to defend themselves from magic, and the shield would be their answer. they don't need more damage, but should be capable of fully defending themselves. not being able to block magic is just silly.

for WAR, downgrade their armor to share with DRG, bump up base hp, add a parry buff in tank stance and they'll be fine, if a bit heal hungry. DK's are alright, but could use help with their sustain that doesn't rely on them main tanking.

i think the equipment used should reflect their abilities a bit better, rather than arguing over a second here and there in their kits. with this, PLD can handle magic damage. this opens up the healer to throw out a damage skill or 2 to offset the dps lost. WAR, has a larger pool for getting hit but requires more babysitting while putting out more dps. and DRK can be the happy medium.

had to clear 2/3 of what i wanted to say, so this may a little butchered.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

You can bypass the 1000 char limit by posting then editing your post.

In actual fights, even if they contain magic damage, PLD mitigates ridiculous amounts. Here is a post with some analysis. So shield blocking magic might be too much. But I wouldn't care if a defensive class gets more defense.

WAR downgrading to DRG gear has 2 issues:
1- WAR already requires more healer attention and micromanagement of self-heals than the other two tanks, why make it more difficult?
2- You want WAR to be more parry focused but parry as a stat is unique to heavy armor. DRG gear will not have parry in it.

[Anger]

ridiculous amounts.

I believe your analysis is wrong. The purpose of our argument is that the Paladin should never be overcome or nearly overcome in defense if it is "specialized" in defense, according to SE. In essence, the disparity between Warrior and Dark Knight DPS in an encounter is much greater than the defensive advantages the Paladin has.

Because of this, there's really no reason to take a Paladin if a Warrior can do the fight and do more damage or if a Dark Knight can do the fight and do more damage. This is known as imbalance.

Breaking it down further, both tanks can do ALL content with or without a paladin and deal substantially higher damage - that is unacceptable.

You've stated before 5% is the difference between the tanks but it is much greater than that. Once again, a warrior is significantly higher than 5% in difference in an actual fight - look at the "final numbers" not just what can be done in three minutes on a dummy.

[Phoenicia]

I believe your analysis is wrong. The purpose of our argument is that the Paladin should never be overcome or nearly overcome in defense if it is "specialized" in defense, according to SE. In essence, the disparity between Warrior and Dark Knight DPS in an encounter is much greater than the defensive advantages the Paladin has.

My analysis is wrong because? Give me a single reason why it is. Give me a counter analysis of optimized rotations to support what you claim. Until then, I'm 100% correct since I've proven my case. With math.

Because of this, there's really no reason to take a Paladin if a Warrior can do the fight and do more damage or if a Dark Knight can do the fight and do more damage. This is known as imbalance.

Breaking it down further, both tanks can do ALL content with or without a paladin and deal substantially higher damage - that is unacceptable.

PLD can do all content without taking as much damage as WAR or DRK, that is unacceptable! We're all tanks!

You've stated before 5% is the difference between the tanks but it is much greater than that. Once again, a warrior is significantly higher than 5% in difference in an actual fight - look at the "final numbers" not just what can be done in three minutes on a dummy.

On a dummy, the disparity is maximized. In actual fights, that difference is even smaller. You are yet to show me a case of a fully optimized PLD in a fight pulling more than 100 DPS behind WAR. Again, proof.

What you are saying is "I have no proof. I'm just gonna say you're wrong because I am right!" Which is, with all due respect, what Bulls*** is. Now stop being obnoxiously rude with the whole "You are wrong!" and provide proof or leave. Thank you.