Paladin need to be review.

[Iagainsti]

Gonna start throwing memes around if this thread doesn't end soon.

pld is not a dmg class.

I saved you a daily limit posting.





Also pld in shield oath is a flat 20% decrease to all damage.

[Galactimus]

Also pld in shield oath is a flat 20% decrease to all damage.

Not sure what the point of that was.

A Warrior in Defiance is a flat 25% decrease to all damage.
A Dark Knight in Grit is a flat 20% decrease to all damage.

[Pr0c3ss0r]

Because PLDs get to block stuff with their shields in addition to being able to Parry.

Raw Intuition: 20/90 = +22.22% Pary rate (20 sec out of 90 sec, WAR parry attack at 100% )

Bulwark: 15/180 = +8.3% Block rate (15 sec out of 180 sec they get a 60% bonus)


21% native Block rate from shield + 60% Bulk Bulwark = 81% block rate (is not 100% like war). 19% chance that Bulwark won't even trigger a block during the 15 sec.


+8.3% * 0.81 (81%) => Bulwark = 6.723% Extra block rate. 21% from shield + 6.723% Extra with Bulwark = 27.723% total.


Now if i resume this, since 3.0:

WAR Parry 20% of the DMG at 22.22% Rate (with only Raw Intuition).

PLD block 21% of the DMG at 27.723% rate (With native shield block rate and Bulwark included)

PLD native shield block 21% rate is already included in the 27.723% total, so they can't block more than that.

For WAR, i did not include they "NATIVE" parry rate in the 22.22%, I do ignore the extra parry for WAR so do i for PLD, as they have the same chance with that, and you can't parry + block at same time.


In the end of the day:

PLD have 5.503% more block rate and 1% extra dmg mitigation.

1% more DMG mitigation with an extra 5.503% chance = 1 * 1.0503 = They take 1.05503% DMG less than WAR.

To say PLD is way superior to WAR just because of they shield, make me giggle a little bit, it use to be true in 2.xx, not the case in 3.xx


If mess up the math at this (which is always a possibility) then point me out where.


**NOTE: I Know i did not include Sheltron and i will repeat myself again on this:
Against a single monster that do a strong physical DMG (Like Ravana BB) Sheltron turn to be mega powerful.
Against multi-encounter, Sheltron almost make no difference in the % Rate.

[Kosmos992k]

Against a single monster that do a strong physical DMG (Like Ravana BB) Sheltron turn to be mega powerful.
Against multi-encounter, Sheltron almost make no difference in the % Rate.

Sheltron is pointless when there are multiple targets because just when you need it, pop it, some trash mob flicks an auto-attack at you and boom, no more sheltron. I'd have liked to have seen Sheltron be implemented in such a way that it ignored auto-attacks.

[Galactimus]

Math Stuff

For the sake of testing:
- Let's ignore different Blocking Strengths and Blocking Rates. Such as the Hive Shield that blocks 28% of damage taken.
- Let's ignore that Blocking gets more and more powerful with each Shield upgrade; and yet Parry remains the same.
- Let's ignore that if you accidentally get hit from the side during Raw Intuition all the damage you mitigated with Parries was now pointless (which can happen a lot in A2 Savage as Widows and Walkers start pushing everything all over the screen; or if you need to dodge a bomb.)


Using your numbers:

Paladins have a 21% chance to Block 21% damage
Paladins have a 21% chance to Parry 21% damage

Since you can't Block and Parry at the same time they must be treated like the separate spins of a Roulette wheel, hence:

100[1-(0.79)^2] = 37.6%

A Paladin has a 37.6% chance to mitigate 21% damage every single attack.
A Warrior has a 21% chance to mitigate 21% damage every single attack.
(No abilities being used.)


Conclusion Sauce
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- When Raw Intuition is not being used (75% of the entire fight) a Paladin is mitigating far superior damage.

- When Raw Intuition and Bulwark are both in use (10% of the Fight) you are putting up an even amount of mitigation; assuming War doesn't take a critical hit from something.

- When Raw Intuition is in use and Bulwark is on cool down (15% of the Fight) a Warrior is temporarily mitigating more damage.


**Note: These numbers increase in a Paladins favor as his Shield upgrades. In situations where Bulwark and Raw Intuition are sitting un-used for awhile, a Paladins mitigation is increasing even further. Multi-mob fights (AS2) multiply the damage mitigated by Paladin even more. The more mobs you are tanking the greater the chance of taking a Critical Hit during Raw Intuition.

[Pr0c3ss0r]

Paladins have a 21% chance to Block 21% damage
Paladins have a 21% chance to Parry 21% damage

No, PLD don't have 21% chance to parry, Parry is affected by GEAR stats only, which nor PLD nor WAR is interest in it because the return is never that high.

I have a new scoop btw, i did some test, and math, and here my finding:

Ive tested 4 Shield:

[Block == 14] => i45 Eagle-crested Round Shield = 10%
[Block = 234] => i135 Dreadwyrm Shield = 18%
[Block = 322] => i180 Asuran Greatshield = 21%
[Block = 343] => i200 Antiquated Prytwen = 21%
[Block = 533] => i190 Hive Scutum = 28%

So i assume, the minimum Block is 10%, so 234 / 8 = 29.25 per block, so assume is 1% per 30 Block + 10.

And the formula match perfectly: Round(Block STR / 30) + 10 = % BLOCK DMG.

14 / 30 = 0.46666666666666666666666666666667 + 10 = 10.46 (Round = 10%)
234 / 30 = 7.8 + 10 = 17.8 (round = 18%)
322 / 30 = 10.733333333333333333333333333333 + 10 = 20.73 (round at 21%)
343 / 30 = 11.433333333333333333333333333333 + 10 = 21.43% (round at 21%)
533/30 = 17.766666666666666666666666666667 + 10 = 27.7666% (round at 28%)

Now let talk about i210 Shield:

[Block = 554] => i210 Gordian-Shield = (554/30) + 10 = 28.466666666666666666666666666667 (Rounded = 28%)
[Block = 354] => i210 Prytwen = (354/30) + 10 = 21.8 (Rounded = 22%)

I wish my formula is a little off, because if is Round(Block STR / 30) I210 Gordian-Shield will block same DMG as Ravana shield but with a slight better % chance.

Edit: Assuming parry have same formula as Shield (which i have a MEGA strong doubt) it be: Round(total Parry / 30) + 10

This would mean:

(510 / 30) + 10 = 27% Base parry for PLD and WAR (number seem way too high)

Raw Intuition: 20/90 = +22.22% Pary rate (20 sec out of 90 sec, WAR parry attack at 100% )

so 20 sec out of 90, it be 100% parry, then 70 sec out of 90 it be 27% parry.

War would parry at:

(20 * 100 + 70 * 27) = 3890 / 90sec = 43.222222222222222222222222222222% Parry total, spamming Raw Intuition every time is up.

VS PLD:

27.723% + ??? Parry

It have to FAIL block first to actually have a chance to parry. So with 27.723% chance of blocking, this mean, it have a 72.277% chance to FAIL BLOCK and process the 27% chance parry.
**Is the reason #1 in 2.xx PLD was not using parry gear, as our shield was blocking 35%~ leaving only 65% ~to fail and actually process the parry at (21% * .65) 13.65%)

27 * .72277 = 19.51479% chance to parry.

PLD = 47.23779% chance to block or parry (27.723% Block + 19.51479% Parry)

VS

WAR 43.2222% to parry

Note 1: The real formula for Parry % is unknown from me, but it won't affect much the % from WAR to PLD.
Note 2: Formula to integrate parry for both tank was not needed as both benefit from parry, but the end result is pretty much the same.
Note 3: This post already calculating the shield i210 with formula, and no, i210 shield wont change much. Low block rate shield be awesome for encounter like Ravana, but won't be good at multi-enemy.

Since you can't Block and Parry at the same time they must be treated like the separate spins of a Roulette wheel, hence:

100[1-(0.79)^2] = 37.6%

A Paladin has a 37.6% chance to mitigate 21% damage every single attack.
A Warrior has a 21% chance to mitigate 21% damage every single attack.

Assuming both Tank would not use Bulwark and Raw Intuition, you are correct in this formula. It prove pretty much that 1 BAD WAR vs 1 BAD PLD, 1 BAD PLD wil mitigate more.

**Note: These numbers increase in a Paladins favor as his Shield upgrades. In situations where Bulwark and Raw Intuition are sitting un-used for awhile, a Paladins mitigation is increasing even further.

By 1% if you are talking about i210 Prytwen VS i200 Antiquated Prytwen
By 0% if you are talking about I210 Gordian-Shield VS i190 Hive Scutum
By 0% if you are talking about i200 Antiquated Prytwen VS i180 Asuran Greatshield

%Rate be your only difference really, and is like 11~% better. so like 2~3% more block rate at best, it will make a difference, but won't be Day and night, you will slightly notice the difference.

~~~~ Last Edit ~~~~

Ok, Let stay positive and i210 give 1% more block and 3% more block rate, then let say both Tank have 15K HP total:

Tank from full health 15,000 to 0 HP without any healer support, will mitigate:

I200 Shield PLD: 15,000 DMG * 21% = 3150 DMG block but it have 27.723% chance to block: 3150 * 27.723% = 873.2745 DMG reduction

I210 shield PLD: 15,000 DMG * 22% = 3300 DMG block but it have 30.723% chance to block: 3300 * 30.723% = 1013.859 DMG reduction

I190 weapon WAR: 15,000 DMG * 20% = 3000 DMG parry but it have 22.22% chance to block: 3000 * 22.22% = 666.6 DMG reduction

Well it look like PLD win right? But that is just true on single target, on MULTI-Target with Bloodbath, OverPower, Berserk they get 140 HP per monster and per OverPower.
PLD can use Bloodbath + Fight or Flight + Circle of Scorn + 2 Flash (you can only do 1x Circle of Scorn per Bloodbath. CoS = 100HP return max per monster.

Let say PLD flash 2 time (is that too many flash to hold 4 monster?) PLD do 0 dmg for both of these flash, and +400 for CoS, total HP return = 400
WAR do 2 OverPower and get 140 HP per mob, 140 * 4 = 560 HP return * 2 Overpower = 1120 HP Return.

I know is incorrect to say is DMG reduction when is blood leech, but in the end is the same result:

I210 shield PLD: 15,000 DMG * 22% = 3300 DMG block but it have 30.723%% chance to block: 3300 * 30.723% = 1013.859 + 0 HP return from Flash + 400 HP Return from CoS+BB =1413.859 reduction.

I190 weapon WAR: 15,000 DMG * 20% = 3000 DMG parry but it have 22.22% chance to block: 3000 * 22.22% = 666.6 + 1120 HP Return = 1786.6 reduction.

WAR is already performing way better than PLD, and when WAR get I210 AXE, it will destroy PLD in every department (defensive wise) even PLD with I210 Shield.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Multi-mob fights (AS2) multiply the damage mitigated by Paladin even more. The more mobs you are tanking the greater the chance of taking a Critical Hit during Raw Intuition.

True, but Awareness give you 15 sec out of 20 sec to make sure no monster is in your flank/back

[Galactimus]

Well it look like PLD win right? But that is just true on single target, on MULTI-Target with Bloodbath, OverPower, Berserk they get 140 HP per monster and per OverPower.

Whoa there. So let me get this straight...

In order to have more damage mitigation than a Paladins natural Block and Parry you're telling me you're going to pop Raw Intuition, Awareness, Bloodbath, Berserk, and Overpower spam at 130 TP? I think you're cheating now sir. That's like me saying "Hey, I'll just go ahead and cast a Clemency while you're doing all that. Bam, 6,000 damage mitigated. Four times more damage mitigated than all those abilities you just used on Warrior, no cool downs used!!!"

[Adire]

Not sure what the point of that was.

A Warrior in Defiance is a flat 25% decrease to all damage.
A Dark Knight in Grit is a flat 20% decrease to all damage.

WAR can change to Deliverance and throw out their big hits then go back into defiance until time to do it again with minimal trouble due to stack transfers. Their big hitters are convenient for window usage.

DRK has Darkside almost completely offsetting their damage decrease.

Paladin has a clunky, inconvenient stance dance system and slow, consistent dps rather than the bursty damage WAR does. Not very good at dpsing without being in sword oath for a much longer period of time than WARs need to be in Deliverance due to not being reliant on burst damage.

That's my understanding, and that's one large reason why PLD DPS stance isn't worth crap compared to them in most situations.

[niwaar]

I've read the thread thus far and I agree that Paladin does need a review.

I do notagree that they need vastly more AOE damage. I do not agree that they need more single target damage.

What Paladin does in fact need is to have abilities that are and feel useful. These abilities should not be a choice of whether to continue their combo or use one of these abilities. These abilities need to have a manner in which they become not interruptible.

So what do we need to see?
Stoneskin and Clemency need to not interrupt combos.
Clemency needs to be cast without interruption when cast on self.
Tempered Will needs to include "spells cast without interruption".
Shield Swipe needs to be conal and needs a 30s cd.

These changes do not fix the fundamental problem with Blind and other detrimental debuffs in XIV. (These debuffs are currently virtually useless outside of a small handful of situations thanks to DR and low durations). They don't fix our issues with block/parry and stat itemization either. However, it does fix the combo issue. It does fix the single largest issue with Clemency. It gives a secondary reason to use Tempered Will when knockbacks arent an issue but interrupts on Stoneskin are. Finally it gives a real use for an ability that was only a "TP saver" on 98% of fights. Giving a Block procced frontal AoE would do loads to help the job.

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

I do notagree that they need vastly more AOE damage. I do not agree that they need more single target damage.

So what do we need to see?
Stoneskin and Clemency need to not interrupt combos.
Clemency needs to be cast without interruption when cast on self.
Tempered Will needs to include "spells cast without interruption".
Shield Swipe needs to be conal and needs a 30s cd.

Someone remove this sensible nonsense from the forums now please.