PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

[Phoenicia]

basically a PLD has to rely on their DPS carrying them to their clears? How is that balanced or acceptable?

It is acceptable because PLD doesn't rely as much on their healers to keep them alive as the other tanks. PLD requires the least healing as it has the highest mitigation AND effective healing received. Oh and enough supportive skills that can be powerful if utilized.

Guess what? EVERY class in the game relies on the rest of their group to "carry them to their clears"! WAR and DRK still need healers to heal them, and DPS still need a tank to keep the boss's arse exposed for rear and flank attacks. If everything was measured by how much DPS an individual could do, groups would end up with 7 DRGs and 1 healer.

PLD is the safest of the three tanks, it has the highest mitigation and is not lacking in ANY environment. PLD's mitigation is superb in physical and is great in magical damage. DRK is just better at magical but DRK is utter shit in physical. PLD brings so much utility that if a PLD knew how to use its utility healers will have PLENTY of time to DPS. As long as PLD has all that going for it, it should never, ever DPS as much as the other tanks. And PLD is hardly doing 8% less than a WAR going full DPS.

Also skill trees and different builds aren't "False Choices". They can be done in various ways where different builds CAN exist. You are probably looking at games that "failed" in their skill trees and cookie cutter builds that proved mathematically superior existed. But why not look at games that successfully made different builds possible?

I won't go into detail as it doesn't matter, but the point is some games succeeded at providing multiple builds for different classes.

WoW successfully had multiple builds per class, while some classes went down to cookie cutter builds per tree, some other classes had 2 or 3 viable builds per tree. I remember rogues having two subtlety builds and warriors having multiple arms and fury builds.

Aion for example had the Stigma stone builds. While every class had a couple of stigma skills that they couldn't live without, they still had 7 to 9 slots that they could build in freely. Defensive templars were as viable as offensive templars. Each brought something that had a place for. DPS clerics and defensive clerics also had their place. Sorcerers had buff builds that were viable and had burst builds that were also viable. Same with Spiritmasters' debuff builds and spirit builds.

That's why I suggested that PLD would need something to completely change the whole party setup.

The developers do not want to stray away from the fixed group setup of 2 tanks, 2 healers and 4 DPS, so hybrids are probably not gonna happen.

PLD already has enough mitigation and support to allow for healers to add more DPS. PLD is by far the easiest tank to heal as it receives the most effective healing.

so anyway not sure how these full dps plds do far better than I unless its a lie I was using goring 3 and Ra 3 not RoH combo at all.

My tests all single dummy solo as in only 1 dummy target no party no debuffs from another tank btw the way a parse should be done.

Stop trying to play PLD like DRG. Your role is not to be the most DPS, it is to allow everyone to do their maximum DPS. You can help by providing more DPS and it was already proven that PLD is barely 6% lower than WAR (at ~940 vs ~1000). Not even much compared to the disparity between DRG (1300+) and BRD/MCH (~1100).

[Brian_]

snip

A PLD will always deal less damage than a DRK or WAR given the same environment.

The extra DPS is always helpful.

A PLD will only situationally have better survivability than a DRK or WAR.

Of those situations, only a handful actually matter. And when I say matter, I mean that it actually changes how they need to be healed to a significant degree.

Notice the imbalance here?

If PLDs were ALWAYS the best tank for survivability in any situation, then fine. That's an actual trade-off. They aren't.

Also, like I said, the tanking meta is what it is. That PLD has more survivability doesn't matter because once it is beyond a certain threshold, it is dropped for more DPS anyways.

As for every class needing others to carry them, let's use the parse you cling to for dear life as an example.

WAR requires nothing.

PLD / DRK requires a dedicated TP bot and someone to keep the slashing debuff up.

Nevermind the blatantly obvious flaws in how it's a dummy parse of pure DPS which is completely disconnected from PLD MTing. Also disregard the fact that people love to claim PLDs have higher overall mitigation and comparable DPS but fail to mention that a PLD needs to stay in Sword Oath to achieve said DPS so they won't have higher overall eHP. Swap back to Shield Oath at the appropriate times you say? Well have fun breaking your combos, losing GCDs, and gimping your DPS for that duration. Nobody has posted a real comparison of their DPS in actual live environments. But, we have multiple top progression groups dropping PLDs because they just didn't do enough. Think about that.

Raiding is a team experience, obviously. But, what we're looking at is different amounts of carry. The reality is WARs and DRKs in the current end-game don't require drastically different healing than a PLD. Ask the groups that have switched. It's not like because they're using a DRK instead of a PLD, their SCH is now stuck full-time healing. No. Their SCH is still full-time DPSing during light damage phases outside of spot support and support healing when the damage starts ramping up. So in the end, you have negligible differences in actual healing with real differences in DPS.

Next, design. Skill trees can offer variety when it's used to give the same class different roles. But, within those roles, there is very little variety at the highest level. I stopped playing WoW shortly before WotLK. I was in a guild that was consistently alliance first or second for all major kills on one of the largest PvP servers. The only reason we weren't server first was the horde first guild was a top 10 guild in the world. Back when I played, there was 1 tanking build, 1 DPS build, and 1 PvP build for Warrior. Maybe years later, Blizzard would find better luck with their skill balance, but there were obvious imbalances through stretches of WoW's history that lead to cookie-cutter talent builds that robbed players of their choices. To deny the existence of imbalances during a game's infancy is unbelievably stupid. Balance is something you work towards and something very hard to achieve. Last I checked, HW is still pretty new and yet you'll have some obviously biased voices clinging to the idea that everything is fine.

[Reynhart]

The developpers do not want to stray away from the fixed group setup of 2 tanks, 2 healers and 4 DPS, so hybrids are probably not gonna happen.

CT2 and 3 want to have a word with you.
"Turn 2 enrage 3 healers" strat would also want to have a word, especially when that setup was deemed a brillant idea by the developpers themselves.

This is without counting the numerous "solo tank" and/or "solo heal" strats that were proved to be more efficient on most content.

PLD already has enough mitigation and support to allow for healers to add more DPS. PLD is by far the easiest tank to heal as it receives the most effective healing.

You realize that, before HW, WAR had a better overall mitigation (Hallowed Ground notwithstanding) than PLD and that the gap between Shield Oath and Defiance is a little 5% healing receiving ?
How is it by far ?

[Phoenicia]

CT2 and 3 want to have a word with you.
"Turn 2 enrage 3 healers" strat would also want to have a word, especially when that setup was deemed a brillant idea by the developpers themselves.

This is without counting the numerous "solo tank" and/or "solo heal" strats that were proved to be more efficient on most content.

You realize that, before HW, WAR had a better overall mitigation (Hallowed Ground notwithstanding) than PLD and that the gap between Shield Oath and Defiance is a little 5% healing receiving ?
How is it by far ?

First of all, I like how you're counting the exceptions of the rule in CT2 and 3.

T2 Enrage was NOT planned, and even after it was discovered, it was/is an inferior strategy that took at least 8 minutes longer than a group doing it the normal way. Even if the devs called it "Brilliant".

Solo tank and solo heal strats were always developed AFTER (vastly) out-gearing content. I do not see how it is relevant. Also SE deliberately went the route of making encounters requiring MORE double tank/healer efforts after people solo tanked all of SCoB (after vastly out-gearing it, mind you) and made it so you CANNOT solo tank FCoB and Alexander. You proved nothing in counting the few exceptions to the main rule: 2 tanks, 2 healrs and 4 DPS.

Since 2.1, WAR has been on equal terms (or superior in environments that ignored shield) with PLD when it comes to mitigation but has always been behind because of its effective healing. PLD was the MT of choice because of safety, not mitigation. There is a difference. PLD is far safer than WAR in every scenario.

When a PLD increases its eHP, it increases its effective healing by the same percentage. Rampart increases eHP by 25% AND effective healing by 25%. Sentinel by 67%. PLD is equal in terms of raw mitigation to WAR but the discrepancy comes from safety and effective healing.

WAR healing discrepancy comes from the following:

Spells and ONLY Spells are boosted by 20%, not 25%, this puts WAR at 4% less effective healing from Spells than PLD and DRK.

Abilities do not get affected by Defiance, WAR receives 25% worse healing from all abilities. This includes all healer abilities with a potency like Lustrate, Tetragammaton, Assize and Essential Dignity. This also includes WAR's own self heals since they do not scale with Defiance. Since percentage healing is removed aside from Benediction, you can see how bad this affects WAR.

One of WAR's major CDs is Thrill of Battle, which increases WAR's eHP but not effective healing, increasing the effective healing discrepancy by 20%. This is usually offset with Convalescence. ToB+Conv is still weaker than Rampart (17% vs 20% effective damage reduction). Let's not pretend that PLD doesn't have a 30% Conv.

Any self healing WAR has, exists to make up for this major discrepancy.

WAR has Raw Intuition which is more reliable than Bulwark AND Sheltron combined, it still comes with a negative side that requires another CD (Awareness) to off-set. Raw Intuition is what puts WAR on equal terms with PLD when it comes to "physical damage mitigation".

Yes, PLD is a LOT easier to heal than WAR. Ask any healer main.

Classic Phoenica going "NONONO I R RIGHT" and then proceeding with ad hominems and completely wrong statements.

Just wait, some "proof" with no parses are going to come out showing how "balanced" everything is.

I'll just enjoy the trainwreck of posts with popcorn in hand.

In b4 ad hominem on this post.

Classic OPneedNerfs coming in adding irrelevant ad hominems at players and completely wrong statements with no proof or contribution.

I see you are still holding a grudge. But I'll reply to you anyways...

1- No body talked to you.

2- EVERYTHING I stated, I provided either the math, parse or videos of people providing the math or parses for in one or more of my posts.

3- You first came in and attacked the whole warrior community with a childish statement of "It is funny how warriors are afraid to lose their established solidified spot in every raid group" which had absolutely no relevance on any of the threads and adds 0 contribution. This entire thread is about PLDs crying that they have competition for the MT spot. (it isn't even completely taken over!)

4- Please stop with these childish posts and contribute something or simply leave. Thank you.

I will ignore anything you type from now on.

A PLD will always deal less damage than a DRK or WAR given the same environment.

..

WAR requires nothing.

PLD / DRK requires a dedicated TP bot and someone to keep the slashing debuff up.

...

Someone has to be lowest DPS. Just like how BRD and MCH are 300 DPS behind DRG and are considered lowest. BRD and MCH still find their place in raid groups. So will PLD.

WAR needs more healing than PLD. That is something that WAR needs! Just because WAR is one of the 2 classes that provide the slashing debuff it became the most independent class in the game? Oh and please let's not pretend that WAR TP was an issue because it didn't exist pre-HW. WAR always had 0 cost GCDs and pacification after Zerk.

Oh and in before someone says T10. We'd be counting exceptions. Also, I main tanked that fight and never had any TP issues. Even when keeping Fracture up 100% on the boss. I used to drop Defiance to increase DPS, which was WAR's version of "stance dancing" before Deliverance.

World/server firsts try to complete content before they have the gear for it. It's a whole different challenge and approach to the game. They also haven't tried WAR MT / PLD OT, they straight went and changed PLD MT to DRK MT. They dropped actual DPS (MNK) for other DPS (NIN) to squeeze in more DPS as well. So let's stop bringing them up when it comes to tank DPS comparisons.

Along with the reasons above, no body should care about world firsts since you, me and the rest of the community, are not in world/server firsts. We play in our statics, and our statics have their own setups, skill levels and conditions. Also PLD's "survival threshold" is lower than WAR. PLD allows healers to DPS more than a WAR tank. PLD providing slightly less DPS than WAR is irrelevant when healers healing PLD can dish out more DPS than the ones healing WAR.

In any fight where PLD's MT mitigation is "not far superior to WAR" for whatever-reason that doesn't exist, just flip the roles, have WAR MT and PLD OT, it is a better overall DPS setup than even DRK MT and WAR OT. Try it.

The only fights where WAR mitigates noticeably more than the other two tanks is a fight that has a 45s or less CD on the tank busters.

[Reynhart]

First of all, I like how you're counting the exceptions of the rule in CT2 and 3.

I'm not the one stating the absolute "developpers do not want"...

T2 Enrage was NOT planned, and even after it was discovered, it was/is an inferior strategy that took at least 8 minutes longer than a group doing it the normal way.

Longer doesn't mean inferior. Like I said in another topic, if you do a run two times faster but with countless death on the way, your run is WORSE.

Solo tank and solo heal strats were always developed AFTER (vastly) out-gearing content.

Solo tank T5 was a thing when BCoB was still out of Duty Finder. The same is true for T9.

You proved nothing in counting the few exceptions to the main rule: 2 tanks, 2 healrs and 4 DPS.

The thing I proved is that you CAN have different party setup. Would the same setup be used for every content ? Of course not, but each content would have an optimal party setup.

Spells and ONLY Spells are boosted by 20%, not 25%, this puts WAR at 4% less effective healing from Spells than PLD and DRK.

Which back in the days of ARR were...almost every healing received...oh and by the way, having higher HP max meant that Lustrate and Stoneskin offered the same eHP% as PLD (And stoneskin still does)
And you're purposely ignoring that Inner Beast (Increase your eHP as high as Rampart) already heals you, and is tied to your attack power, like Second Wind and Equilibrium, giving you a much greater self heal potential.
Let's also ignore the fact that WAR can use Inner Beast three times for one Rampart.

ToB+Conv is still weaker than Rampart (17% vs 20% effective damage reduction). Let's not pretend that PLD doesn't have a 30% Conv.

Again, let's ignore than ToB+Conv+Inner Beast is far greater than Rampart...

WAR has Raw Intuition which is more reliable than Bulwark AND Sheltron combined, it still comes with a negative side that requires another CD (Awareness) to off-set.

Ok, another WAR who can't manage to keep monster in front of him...sorry, but explain how you end up hit from flank or back when you're tanking a single boss ? You know, the times where mitigation really matters ?

Yes, PLD is a LOT easier to heal than WAR. Ask any healer main.

No, it's not, and most healers only have a "hunch" that it's easier. Or come to this threads to eat uneducated statements like this.

Someone has to be lowest DPS.

Indeed, one has to be. The problem is that what PLD has to offer is meaningless. As long as any party needs two healers to survive, any added mitigation is worthless.

In any fight where PLD's MT mitigation is "not far superior to WAR" for whatever-reason that doesn't exist, just flip the roles, have WAR MT and PLD OT, it is a better overall DPS setup than even DRK MT and WAR OT. Try it.

But still a lesser overall DPS as WAR MT + WAR OT.

[Phoenicia]

I'm not the one stating the absolute "developpers do not want"...

Yoshi-P said he wants to stick to the 2 tank 2 healer 4 DPS formula and not to deviate from it in one of his live letters. So it's not a "claim" by me. He repeats that point every time people ask for hybrids or support roles.

Longer doesn't mean inferior. Like I said in another topic, if you do a run two times faster but with countless death on the way, your run is WORSE.

While longer doesn't "necessarily" mean inferior, if a group can do it without dying, it IS inferior. Any static that cleared BCoB before 2.1 did it the "normal" way which lasted 5~8 minutes less. Making it "better".

Solo tank T5 was a thing when BCoB was still out of Duty Finder. The same is true for T9.

Solo tank T5 was a thing only when everyone was already ilv90. Which is higher than the required entry level.

The thing I proved is that you CAN have different party setup. Would the same setup be used for every content ? Of course not, but each content would have an optimal party setup.

I didn't say you can't. I'm saying content isn't designed for it to be that way.

Edit: This also reminded me how stupidly easier it was to do duo tank in Shiva Ex but people still preferred solo tank to kill Shiva a whole 6 seconds faster. Ramuh Ex solo tank - 3 healers was more taking than a normal strat too.

Which back in the days of ARR were...almost every healing received...oh and by the way, having higher HP max meant that Lustrate and Stoneskin offered the same eHP% as PLD (And stoneskin still does)

And you're purposely ignoring that Inner Beast (Increase your eHP as high as Rampart) already heals you, and is tied to your attack power, like Second Wind and Equilibrium, giving you a much greater self heal potential.

Let's also ignore the fact that WAR can use Inner Beast three times for one Rampart.

Again, let's ignore than ToB+Conv+Inner Beast is far greater than Rampart...

First of all: You shouldn't compare WAR and PLD CDs one-to-one because they have a different structure. TOB+IB+Conv is still weaker than Sentinel. Vengeance+IB is slightly stronger than Sentinel. Any IB + CD is stronger than Rampart. On a 1 min CD buster (which most of this games busters), WAR will alternate ToB+IB and Veng+IB. PLD will have a more strict CD "rotation" which, if the fight is longer than 5 minutes (5 busters), will include Hallowed Ground. Overall mitigation is still the same.

I also stated PLD and WAR have almost equal mitigation (one of them is gonna be more than the other depending on the fight) but the discrepancies are safety and effective healing.

Secondly: Inner Beast can be used 5 times per Rampart, not 3. You need 17.5s to recharge + 2.5 to use, and you have Infuriate. So you have 1 IB / 20s, in a 90s you have 4.5 x 20s + 1 infuriate. But that's WAR's mitigation advantage which I mentioned in my post quoting myself:

The only fights where WAR mitigates noticeably more than the other two tanks is a fight that has a 45s or less CD on the tank busters.

I also said:

Any self healing WAR has, exists to make up for this major discrepancy.

WAR self-healing isn't "THE" advantage it has. It is something to make up for something else. Inner Beast heal portion is not increased by Defiance as it is not a spell.

I also mentioned that %heals are removed from the game now.

Ok, another WAR who can't manage to keep monster in front of him...sorry, but explain how you end up hit from flank or back when you're tanking a single boss ? You know, the times where mitigation really matters ?

Personally I don't even have Awareness slotted. But ignoring the fact that Raw Intuition is not a "push and forget" like the entirety of PLD's CD kit is ignorant. Also in big AoE situations with large mobs, some WILL get into your flank due to mobs not liking to stand on each other's hitboxes.

No, it's not, and most healers only have a "hunch" that it's easier. Or come to this threads to eat uneducated statements like this.

I provided the math behind this "hunch". A good WAR will make up for the discrepancy of received healing just like how a good PLD will let their healers and DPS do more DPS.

Indeed, one has to be. The problem is that what PLD has to offer is meaningless. As long as any party needs two healers to survive, any added mitigation is worthless.

As I siad earlier in my posts, healers can still capitalize more on PLD's longer CDs and passive mitigation to DPS more. Specially during fluff damage.

But still a lesser overall DPS as WAR MT + WAR OT.

WAR MT + WAR OT is like a group running 4 DRGs. You will have more individual DPS (and more raid DPS) but for various reasons, it is not an optimal set up.

[Reynhart]

Yoshi-P said he wants to stick to the 2 tank 2 healer 4 DPS formula and not to deviate from it in one of his live letters. So it's not a "claim" by me. He repeats that point every time people ask for hybrids or support roles.

Thanks for the "out of context" sentence. He said that he want to stick with the trinity, and that another role would be difficult to include is the 2/2/4 setup.
But this setup is only for the Duty Finder. Back in 2.0, some fights didn't require this setup, and it was even a very bad setup. An off-tank is worthless if there's only one target.

Any static that cleared BCoB before 2.1 did it the "normal" way which lasted 5~8 minutes less. Making it "better".

No, only making it faster.

Solo tank T5 was a thing only when everyone was already ilv90. Which is higher than the required entry level.

Yes, maybe. So what ? Didn't it make the setup viable ? Or uninteresting ?

I didn't say you can't. I'm saying content isn't designed for it to be that way.

Again, it depends on the content. With a proper orb management, A4 is doable with a single tank, to be clear much faster with the additionnal DPS.

This also reminded me how stupidly easier it was to do duo tank in Shiva Ex but people still preferred solo tank to kill Shiva a whole 6 seconds faster. Ramuh Ex solo tank - 3 healers was more taking than a normal strat too.

Yet the game let them try this. And it worked. Back in the days, solo tank Ramuh EX was also an effective strategy since Lustrate wasn't reduce by the healing debuff.

You shouldn't compare WAR and PLD CDs one-to-one because they have a different structure.

The problem is that WAR can pop Inner Beast more often than PLD can pop any cooldown. So, apart from Hallowed Ground, whatever cooldown a PLD can use, WAR can use a better combination. While still keeping Holmgang as an "oh,shit" button.

Inner Beast can be used 5 times per Rampart, not 3.

Indeed, I didn't count Infuriate, thanks for going my way. The problem with Inner Beast is that it can easily heal for more that 20% of any healing abilities.
Lustrate is 600, Tetragrammaton is 700. Even with 20% increase, it would pale in comparison to a native healing on top of the 300 potency of Inner Beast.
And let's not count if the WAR is targeted by Clemency during Convalescence...

WAR self-healing may not be "THE" advantage, but it easily put its higher than PLD in terms of eHP.

Personally I don't even have Awareness slotted. But ignoring the fact that Raw Intuition is not a "push and forget" like the entirety of PLD's CD kit is ignorant.

You mean like Sheltron and Bulwark, were you don't blocks if mobs are behind or too far on your flank ? Please...

Also in big AoE situations with large mobs, some WILL get into your flank due to mobs not liking to stand on each other's hitboxes.

If mobs get to your flank, you wouldn't even parry their attack, so why do you pop Raw Intuition for mitigation anyway ? Pop Vengeance, or Inner Beast (This, again...) or even Bloodbath with an overpower spamfest, and you'll keep plenty of HP.

I provided the math behind this "hunch". A good WAR will make up for the discrepancy of received healing just like how a good PLD will let their healers and DPS do more DPS.

The problem with your math is you sound like it's something special for a WAR. It's its basic gameplay, so it will always make up for this discrepancy.
You can't say a PLD is "good" only because it uses its cooldown..

As I siad earlier in my posts, healers can still capitalize more on PLD's longer CDs and passive mitigation to DPS more. Specially during fluff damage.

Again, the gap is so thin between WAR and PLD that healers can output the same DPS with either tank.

WAR MT + WAR OT is like a group running 4 DRGs. You will have more individual DPS (and more raid DPS) but for various reasons, it is not an optimal set up.

Except you don't lose anything by not having a DRK or a PLD.

[HoodRat]

Instead of buffing paladin, can we just buff every class in the game stupidly high in order to negate the fact that a vast majority of the people playing mmos are completely retarded and choose to play terribly so I no longer need to carry 7 people in df through alexander while having the highest dps in the group as a warrior just so I can lose the roll on gear I would like to have for progression?

#whatisacomma

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

Except you don't lose anything by not having a DRK or a PLD.

There's no irrefutable reason (besides the boring moar dps one) that stacking two Warriors is better than bringing some combination of the three. There are pros and cons to all the setups.

War/War = no Reprisal / no Halone
Pld/Pld = No slashing / no reprisal / no Halone
Drk/Drk = no Slashing / no Path / No Halone

In the war/war combination, you miss out on one less debuff but the other combinations can mitigate that by adding a Ninja. If you want to say "It's not fair that Pld/Drk have to rely on War/Nin for their optimal damage", go talk to the Bards, Machinists, Black Mages and Summoners about their Piercing Debuff and Foes—I'm sure they'll tell you to deal with it and adjust your party comp accordingly.

#HallowedGround

[Phoenicia]

No, only making it faster.

Faster is more efficient, more efficient is always better. As long as you don't wipe and redo the whole thing, faster is ALWAYS better.

Yes, maybe. So what ? Didn't it make the setup viable ? Or uninteresting ?

Again, it depends on the content. With a proper orb management, A4 is doable with a single tank, to be clear much faster with the additionnal DPS

Yet the game let them try this. And it worked. Back in the days, solo tank Ramuh EX was also an effective strategy since Lustrate wasn't reduce by the healing debuff.

Again, I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, I'm saying it's not how it is designed to be. Also since you speak of "not faster but better", Solo tank Shiva ex risked tank deaths and wiping far more than the far easier and safer but 8-seconds slower two tank strategy.

The problem is that WAR can pop Inner Beast more often than PLD can pop any cooldown. So, apart from Hallowed Ground, whatever cooldown a PLD can use, WAR can use a better combination. While still keeping Holmgang as an "oh,shit" button.

Indeed, I didn't count Infuriate, thanks for going my way. The problem with Inner Beast is that it can easily heal for more that 20% of any healing abilities.
Lustrate is 600, Tetragrammaton is 700. Even with 20% increase, it would pale in comparison to a native healing on top of the 300 potency of Inner Beast.
And let's not count if the WAR is targeted by Clemency during Convalescence...

WAR self-healing may not be "THE" advantage, but it easily put its higher than PLD in terms of eHP.

Again, this would matter if mitigated damage mattered. But since most tank busters are at least 1 minute apart, it's irrelevant. Any IB used outside of tank busters is "waste of DPS" and reduces the damage of three auto-attacks at most. Also do not forget that potencies on spells are higher than physical skills because of weapon damage on magical weapons. Inner Beast heal is weaker than Physic unless you crit while zerked. There is a reason why a lot of tank analysis initially ignore IB's heal and add it near the end as a layer to make up for effective healing lost.

Also, this is very important, due to its nature, IB will be used BEFORE you take the damage, resulting in its heal being an over heal. And since any good WAR CD rotation will incorporate Infuriate to mitigate more instead of heal more, double IB on a single buster is a rare thing.

Also let's not bring this out of context. It is not so white and black. People are complaining about WAR's DPS while tanking. Every IB WAR used is a FC WAR did not use. Leading to less MT DPS. Every time WAR flips to Defiance for Equilibrium or IB heal is at least 10s NOT in Deliverance AND 1 minute without the bonus TP that people seem to envy WAR so bad for. Every 200 TP gained by Equilibrium is a self heal WAR did not use. It is not like WAR is a power house with infinite TP and endless self-healing. In most fights, a WAR focused on defense gives up a lot of its DPS to be "as good as PLD", not better.

Again, WAR's self healing is there to make up for the lack of the passive mitigation of the shield and less overall effective healing received. It's not like WAR depends less on healers because it can self-sustain. Also the higher the damage WAR takes, the less relevant those heals are compared to pure damage mitigated.

You mean like Sheltron and Bulwark, were you don't blocks if mobs are behind or too far on your flank ? Please...

Sheltron and Bulwark don't get you hit for more (crits) if you don't block. Hence they are "press-and-forget".

If mobs get to your flank, you wouldn't even parry their attack, so why do you pop Raw Intuition for mitigation anyway ? Pop Vengeance, or Inner Beast (This, again...) or even Bloodbath with an overpower spamfest, and you'll keep plenty of HP.

Again, RI gets you hit for a crit if you're not careful. Vengeance is on a longer CD, and if a WAR pops IB in AoE it's a massive DPS loss, which, again, is what this whole thread is crying about, DPS. Also let's not pretend you don't need to move to avoid telegraphed attacks which make you prone to flank hits.

The problem with your math is you sound like it's something special for a WAR. It's its basic gameplay, so it will always make up for this discrepancy.
You can't say a PLD is "good" only because it uses its cooldown..

It is a special thing that WAR increases its max HP by as much as PLD and DRK increase their own eHP but not its received healing by the same amount. Hence PLD and DRK receive better effective healing. The basic gameplay of WAR is that it requires more input from someone to make up for a discrepancy that the other tanks don't have. As a reward, WAR can mitigate slightly better.

If it wasn't a "problem", WAR would've already been the MT of choice since it is on equal terms of mitigation with PLD. But it isn't the MT of choice. And don't give me any of that bull of WAR being a far better OT. Nothing a WAR OT does that it can't do as MT as opposed to PLD which can cast freely from the OT spot. Also we'd see WAR/WAR runs being THE thing. But it is a fact that PLD or DRK are almost always in the MT spot while WAR is stuck in the OT spot. If you can't see why PLD or DRK take that spot over WAR, you are missing the whole point of safety.

Again, the gap is so thin between WAR and PLD that healers can output the same DPS with either tank.

The gap is there. Every tank analysis HAS to acknowledge this gap. Healers WILL notice that they need to do more to heal WAR. Self-healing also increases over-healing issues. Healers will panic more with a WAR tank. WAR will almost always have the healer drop cleric stance at least 1 GCD earlier than they would with a PLD.

For WAR to match PLD's mitigation, it gives up a lot of its DPS. But since this is a cry-about-DPS thread, the logic behind WAR superiority is flawed.

Except you don't lose anything by not having a DRK or a PLD.

Nor do you lose anything by not having a WAR. If you want to ignore the safety net of those two tanks over WAR and the damage specific debuffs. Slashing Debuff is not unique to WAR. NIN gains about 40~70 DPS for not using DE. Why is losing Storm Path any worse than losing RoH on a physical fight or Delirium in a magical one? Let's not forget that any good WAR wouldn't keep Storm Path up 100% of the time on any fight. WAR loses 30~50 DPS by substituting every Butcher's Block with Storm Path.

Also double classes hit the LB fill time hard. Making hard fights that much harder.
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All that said and done, don't get me wrong. I do not think WAR is "weaker" than the other tanks. On the contrary, I think it is the strongest of the three. But it is the least safe and safety is a thing. WAR, however, isn't superior to the other two. Each of the three tanks has a niche it fulfills very well. PLD wouldn't even complain if DRK wasn't added and they felt that their spot as the god-sent MT of choice is threatened.

You can't just ignore everything a class does and bring it down to DPS, because if we did that, every group will be 2 WARs, 4 DRGs and 2 SCHs. With almost 80% uptime on Battle Litany and WAR's keeping the slashing debuff going even when one of them is triple cleaving, the DPS is massive.