[DRK] Wanna know why Unleashed & Abyssal Drain are both needed?

[Ditto]

Depends on what you're looking for, but DRK offers some of the highest DPS a tank can achieve in A2S due to their abundance of AoE abilities. PLD is a much safer choice for Waves 7, 8, & 9 if your group prefers to alleviate pressure on healers.

Warriors do more AOE damage than Drk's, at no cost.

You try to capitalize on your AOE damage as a Drk and you'll have no MP left for the next pull and wont be able to control AOE enmity anymore. Thats sort of.. worse than doing mediocre at best AOE damage.

[Kleys]

Warriors do more AOE damage than Drk's, at no cost.

You try to capitalize on your AOE damage as a Drk and you'll have no MP left for the next pull and wont be able to control AOE enmity anymore. Thats sort of.. worse than doing mediocre at best AOE damage.

Could you... learn to play before spouting such nonsense?

I'm really getting tired of all this bullshitting from DRKs that can't even manage their MP/TP.

DRK isn't even that hard to play.

And yeah, 1020 DPS as a DRK in A2S for my very first down, having done a lot of mistakes due to pressure and yolo'd last wave. I've yet to see a WAR doing more than this, while I could've gone for 1050 (without any DRG or NIN in party) if not more.

[Phoenicia]

And yeah, 1020 DPS as a DRK in A2S for my very first down, having done a lot of mistakes due to pressure and yolo'd last wave. I've yet to see a WAR doing more than this, while I could've gone for 1050 (without any DRG or NIN in party) if not more.

Congratulations, you used an ilv 200 weapon to pull 30 DPS lower than the WAR in my previous FC who used an ilv 190 weapon: Video here. I skipped to the end of the fight so you can see the parse.

It's a first kill video and neither of the WARs was "trying" to max DPS.

[Kleys]

Congratulations, you used an ilv 200 weapon to pull 30 DPS lower than the WAR in my previous FC who used an ilv 190 weapon: Video here. I skipped to the end of the fight so you can see the parse.

It's a first kill video and neither of the WARs was "trying" to max DPS.

Please. You don't pull out 1000+ DPS as a tank without trying to max out your DPS. He simply failed at maxing his DPS since it's a "first kill", which is my case and that's why I claim that I could've done more (even more than 1050 now that I think about it, 7% crit is really bad luck), but well, considering how low your healers' DPS is, I don't think it's worth it to push tank's DPS too far. Tank DPS is nice but if you're just pushing your DPS by sacrifying twice more DPS from healers, it's not worth it at all. My healers are just casual players without any 2.0 raid experience, yet 327 DPS from them against 240 from your healers. I think you got my point.
(I've seen healers doing more than 450 DPS with a WAR doing 1000 DPS, so... do the maths)


@LordHousewife,
Most servers first teams and even the world first party were using a PLD/WAR setup in A1S. But, PLD is extremely bad in A1S, while DRK is amazing. So, why were they using this setup? It's simple: they were too busy competiting for world/server first instead of trying to figure out whether or not new jobs are balanced enough to be played in savage. (*cough* AST *cough*)
They didn't bring DRK in A2S for this exact same reason. And also because PLD/WAR is perfectly fine in A2S. Not to mention that A2S isn't harder than A1S.
But as you might've been aware of, A3S is harder than A1S/A2S, therefore the world had time to investigate those new jobs, and guess what? World 1st & 2nd A3S teams both used a DRK/WAR setup (and one of them even used a MCH! *cough* still no AST *cough*)
So please, don't bring me this kind of argument. People just didn't know how to play DRK until now, and, hmm, well, most of them still don't know.

I've highlighted in red why Unleashed is good. Not consuming a DA is a thing, but my main point was that it doesn't break any combos, which allowed me to continue my combos from the last cleared wave on another mob of the next wave, thx to Unleashed, which is pretty much the same for WAR and their Steel Cyclone.
This, plus the fact of having a self-targeted Enmity AoE AND a ranged-targeted Enmity AoE being really helpful in A2S, led me to create this thread, because I couldn't have done things that easily if I had only one of those skills, so I believe they're both needed.

Also, it is very rare but WARs sometimes have to use Flash, just as rare as DRK sometimes have to use Unleashed, but since Unleashed is simply much better than Flash, DRK don't have to bother picking Flash in their cross-class skills, so why would you want to remove it? If you have a decent tanking experience, you should be aware of the fact that a ranged-targeted AoE isn't enough, neither is a self-targeted AoE. So what's so wrong with having a GOOD self-targeted AoE? Shall we remove WAR's Steel Cyclone?

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

I'm not arguing over petty things though. The Pizwah wasn't paying attention to his DPS and he still managed to outDPS you, with a lower ilv weapon no less, when you were bragging about DRK being better than WAR... . That was what I was trying to point out.

Also you claim people still don't know how to play DRK, but DRK is really simple, it's a reskinned PLD with the same CD structure as PLD (1 CD with 90s and 1 with 180s and 1 uber long bad-version-of-I-won't-die CD + other CDs to cover gaps). DRK micromanagement of MP and oGCDs are mainly DPS things that don't contribute much for defense and there is no micromanagement mitigation (Like WAR's wrath and IB for example). Please let's stop pretending any of the tanks is "too hard" to play and people can't learn to play them. Hell it took me 30 minutes to read through DRK skills and understand that it's a PLD in a dark spiky suit playing pretend-WAR.

DRK is the worst tank in A2S because, out of the three tanks, it has the worst mitigation options while not bringing that much in terms of DPS compared to WAR (who has far superior mitigation options in this fight). PLD is king in that fight because of how well it mitigates damage in there and its ability to use HG on the toughest waves.

Now on topic, Unleash is useful, Abyssal Drain is only a DPS increase if MP is not an issue (and in A2S it is). But there is almost no point in having both.

Yes, every tank class has 2 AoE skills that generated ~600 potency enmity. PLD with Flash (600 potency) and CoS (250 x3), WAR with Overpower (120 x5) and SC (200 x3.5), and DRK with Abyssal Drain (120 x5) and Unleash (100 x6). If you look at each class you see that their 2 skills work differently. PLD has a no damage MP PBAoE and a DoT PBAoE on a CD. WAR has a cone AoE that costs TP and a PBAoE that costs Infuriated. But AD and Unleash just don't function very differently from one another and that's why they feel redundant. Both use the same resource, both generate exactly the same enmity. One of them having an added effect at the cost of triple the MP (DA+AD is almost triple the MP of 1 AD) just doesn't cut it.

IMO, remove Unleash, give Abyssal Drain the ability to not break combos and add enmity to Salted Earth and give DRK 1 more CD or something in place of Unleash. Or make Abyssal Drain ALWAYS "Drain" 50% or even 25% of its damage and have DA up that to 100%.

[Kleys]

-

I wasn't paying attention to my DPS either, that's just how it turned out to be while I was trying to do what I had to do for my team. I'm just saying that if I had paid more attention to enmity and incoming damages, to my DoT, without doing any mistakes, I could've done a lot more. Your WAR/WAR setup was so squishy that your healers had no choice but to go full heal thus having an almost non-existent DPS, resulting in an overall DPS lower than a PLD/DRK setup, numbers show it quite well. So yeah, don't bring your e-penis here if you don't have anything to back it up, just face facts.

Also I said on this very thread in my earlier post "DRK isn't even that hard to play" so why are you saying that I said the opposite?


Anyway, basically you're saying: DRK = A Dark Copy/Pasted PLD Wannabe-WAR.
Uh-uh. Well... Why even bother? You must be right.

Btw Abyssal Drain with always 25% drain would be absolutely OP. DRK lack self-healing abilities, yes, but a GCD-Free-Enmity-AoE-Damaging-Heal? 10/10 Square Enix needs you.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

How am "I" stroking my e-peen by linking a video I'm not even in?

You said DRK does more DPS than WAR, I linked a video of a suboptimal setup with a WAR doing more DPS than your DRK with a worse weapon. That's all. I wasn't comparing group DPS. Had the group had a PLD MT, the healers would've done far more DPS, I agree. I'm not arguing that however.

You didn't say DRK is hard to play literally, but you said "People don't know how to play DRK". Hence, my whole thing about DRK being not hard.

I still think DRK is a reskinned PLD wannabe-WAR, yes. It is my opinion of the class I mained until this week.

Abyssal Drain giving a 25% heal is no more OP than WAR getting healed 25% with Overpower (same potency with stronger buffs from Maim) and Steel Cyclone (twice as strong as Overpower). AD already still costs a high amounts of mana and breaks combos.

[Ditto]

Could you... learn to play before spouting such nonsense?

I'm really getting tired of all this bullshitting from DRKs that can't even manage their MP/TP.

DRK isn't even that hard to play.

And yeah, 1020 DPS as a DRK in A2S for my very first down, having done a lot of mistakes due to pressure and yolo'd last wave. I've yet to see a WAR doing more than this, while I could've gone for 1050 (without any DRG or NIN in party) if not more.

Maybe you should go play with good Warriors first? And while you're at it, learn how to play Drk yourself if you honestly cant see the usefulness in the two different abilities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6cqbBWBhpA

Go ahead. Just watch his parse. And that's with an i190 weapon. This is all while bringing better mitigation than Drk brings.

[Kleys]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6cqbBWBhpA

Go ahead. Just watch his parse. And that's with an i190 weapon. This is all while bringing better mitigation than Drk brings.

I'm almost always using Xeno's videos to clear endgame content since T10 so ofc I know this video and what a very good WAR is.

But I was talking about DRK vs WAR, not me against good WAR players. Xeno is a much better WAR than I am as a DRK, but at least I know how I could've done things better if I was just as good as him (and had larger hands), and that's what leads me to say that DRK is able outDPS WARs in A2S while mitigating damage well enough to all healers to have a very high DPS. Not by much, of course.

I don't get what's so wrong with DRK's mitigation in this encounter. It's not that different from PLD, and WAR is rarely using Inner Beast or Storm Path in this fight so how is he providing "better" mitigation than DRK? I didn't felt squishy and my healers didn't have much troubles keeping me alive.
One thing for sure, Abyssal Drain with always 25% drain would be much stronger than a WAR with Berserk & Blood Bath on, because it would be always 25%, could be stacked with Blood Bath, and Abyssal Drain doesn't consume TP. WAR may have Equilibrium, they can't spam Overpower while DRK can spam Abyssal Drain. I'll still try today with Blood Bath instead of Awareness (since none of the mobs ever crit in this fight), just to have a taste of what it could've been if Abyssal Drain actually constantly drained HP.

1020 DPS? I smell a merged parse.

I don't know what you mean by "merged parse", but here is my first-down run with my parse if you're interested:
http://youtu.be/utU-iZqURAc?t=615



Anyway back to the Unleashed & Abyssal Drain topic...

If some people still don't understand that Abyssal Drain can't solve every situations and that every tanks needs at least 2 different AoE in this game, there is nothing we can do about it, experience will teach them.
Now I also believe that SE could've done things slightly differently to prevent these skills from being so redundant, but as of today I've yet to see a good suggestion that isn't gamebreaking. DRK doesn't need to be "better".

Abyssal Drain is 15y.

Radius is 5y.

[Phoenicia]

..
I don't get what's so wrong with DRK's mitigation in this encounter. It's not that different from PLD, and WAR is rarely using Inner Beast or Storm Path in this fight so how is he providing "better" mitigation than DRK? I didn't felt squishy and my healers didn't have much troubles keeping me alive.
One thing for sure, Abyssal Drain with always 25% drain would be much stronger than a WAR with Berserk & Blood Bath on, because it would be always 25%, could be stacked with Blood Bath, and Abyssal Drain doesn't consume TP. WAR may have Equilibrium, they can't spam Overpower while DRK can spam Abyssal Drain. I'll still try today with Blood Bath instead of Awareness (since none of the mobs ever crit in this fight), just to have a taste of what it could've been if Abyssal Drain actually constantly drained HP.
..
..
http://youtu.be/utU-iZqURAc?t=615

DRK has ONLY 2 CDs that "reliably" work for physical damage. Shadowskin and Shadow Wall. Compared to WAR, which has at least 5 CDs that "reliable" work in there, you can easily see the difference. IB, ToB, Vengeance (Far better than Shadow Wall), Raw Intuition, Bloodbath. PLD has passive mitigation with shield, this alone makes it enough but for completion sake: Rampart, Sentinel (Better than Shadow Wall) and Bulwark. Let's not ignore how a PLD can cheese any wave with Hallowed Ground. All three tanks have access to Foresight but WAR's CD is 30s shorter, even if it's a shite CD.

None of the tanks is squishy. But you don't compare them to DPS, you compare them to other tanks. A PLD and WAR will HEAVILY and RELIABLE mitigate more physical damage than DRK ever will.

A WAR will use Overpower + SteelCyclone/Decimate as much as you will use any of your AoEs. You ARE gated by MP and Blood Pact just as much WAR is gated by TP. WAR also has Equilibrium and SC/Decimate are 0TP.

DRK's AoE are spells, spells do NOT benefit from Bloodbath. So no, DRK cannot benefit from Bloodbath in AoE. So "because it would be always 25%, could be stacked with Blood Bath, and Abyssal Drain doesn't consume TP." is just so wrong on so many levels. Abyssal Drain is not free either, it costs MASSIVE MP. It having a base 25% drain barely puts you on equal footing with the other two tanks. Let's not forget WAR's Bloodbath lasts twice as long and WAR's AoE is the same base potency with a stronger damage buff with Maim, add Deliverance for more power! (20~26%).

In your parse, you were OT most of the fight. In Xeno's parse he was MT for the last 3 waves. Xeno pulled hardly 20 less DPS with an ilv190 weapon compared to your ilv200. If you "still" refuse to see how your DPS is not better than WAR's, then you're just being stubborn.