Collective Unconcious

[Vlady]

Why do all the pro-AST players assume every other player is... mentally inept?

Why do you assume that every pro-Ast is wrong about the job because we do not want to be white mages or scholars?

[Geardagas]

Why do you assume that every pro-Ast is wrong about the job because we do not want to be white mages or scholars?

Because that's literally the only reason to be pro-AST.

If you didn't care about being an ast, you'd immediately switch to whm or sch, because they are objectively better for raiding.

[Ghishlain]

Why do you assume that every pro-Ast is wrong about the job because we do not want to be white mages or scholars?

Well Vlady, in your particular case you have made claim after claim about AST proficiencies and right now all of these claims have continued to be baseless because of your lack of evidence. If you're as confident as you are in your claims, give us:

Your parses
Your record keeping methodology
Your screenshots of these claims

So that we, as the healer community, can verify and either agree or disagree with your claim.

For example, you claimed in the past:

I do not understand your issue? I double astro heal A1-A4 without issue all the time. Also have enough mana to keep my 3 dots up along with the utility of our cards which from my own experiences is another 150-170 dps unless you get a unlucky spreak and pull nothing but bole. I easily contribute 200-300 dps from my dots and a malefic cast every now and then along with arrow/balance/spear on my brother who plays a machinist he normally clocks another 150-160 dps through an entire run which is on par with scholar personal dps.

Show us your parse of this fight, and show us a before and after log of this MCN with the same group and gear but no buffs in one fight and full buffs in another.

And consider this, even if you can prove you contributed 350 to 460 DPS in A1-4 when you combine both your personal DPS and mathematically improbable buff boosting, I can do the following on SCH:

On SCH
I've clocked 520 personal DPS on Oppressor with Selene out and an i180 weapon in A1
I've clocked 800+ personal DPS in A2 using Selene and an i180 weapon
I've clocked about 420 DPS in A3 using Eos w/ 52% Overheal (which basically means I can afford to use Selene and be YAY, more buffs!) and an i180 weapon
^ All examples with me paired with a DF'd healing partner

And that's just my personal DPS, not including the additional DPS Selene brings to my group.

I have nothing against the AST job. I find the job extremely rewarding and engaging. But I wish the reward:work ratio was much higher as I can pretty much do the same amount of work on SCH/WHM with about 50-75% of the amount of effort. That seems to be what most of the pro-AST players seem to not understand.

[Vlady]

Well Vlady, in your particular case you have made claim after claim about AST proficiencies and right now all of these claims have continued to be baseless because of your lack of evidence. If you're as confident as you are in your claims, give us:

Your parses
Your record keeping methodology
Your screenshots of these claims

So that we, as the healer community, can verify and either agree or disagree with your claim.

For example, you claimed in the past:



Show us your parse of this fight, and show us a before and after log of this MCN with the same group and gear but no buffs in one fight and full buffs in another.

And consider this, even if you can prove you contributed 350 to 460 DPS in A1-4 when you combine both your personal DPS and mathematically improbable buff boosting, I can do the following on SCH:



And that's just my personal DPS, not including the additional DPS Selene brings to my group.

I have nothing against the AST job. I find the job extremely rewarding and engaging. But I wish the reward:work ratio was much higher as I can pretty much do the same amount of work on SCH/WHM with about 50-75% of the amount of effort. That seems to be what most of the pro-AST players seem to not understand.

I did not say you did. I am confused as to why you are trying to put us into two camps as well. Pro Astro and Anti Astro? Is this a new page in your debate 101 to try to gain a new edge? And I have already gone into groups with people on my server who have whispered me wanting me to put up or shut up. I will gladly invite anyone to parse against training dummies and do a 5 minute run with and without my buffs in whatever scenario you wish to persue. And I have nothing against you since you have put up convincing arguments in the past that I have found turning my mind on some items in the past.

And in all honestly it is normally the job of the prosecutor to bring overwhelming evidence against those who are defending a job that does not need to be defended. Astro/Whitemage/Scholar bring there own strengths and the one thing people are not even mentioning is astro buffs will continue to scale exponentially while the scholar will only receive gradual increases in strength from gearflation. Our buff is a universal enhancing buff that scales incredibly well.

[Ghishlain]

I did not say you did. I am confused as to why you are trying to put us into two camps as well. Pro Astro and Anti Astro? Is this a new page in your debate 101 to try to gain a new edge? And I have already gone into groups with people on my server who have whispered me wanting me to put up or shut up. I will gladly invite anyone to parse against training dummies and do a 5 minute run with and without my buffs in whatever scenario you wish to persue. And I have nothing against you since you have put up convincing arguments in the past that I have found turning my mind on some items in the past.

And in all honestly it is normally the job of the prosecutor to bring overwhelming evidence against those who are defending a job that does not need to be defended. Astro/Whitemage/Scholar bring there own strengths and the one thing people are not even mentioning is astro buffs will continue to scale exponentially while the scholar will only receive gradual increases in strength from gearflation. Our buff is a universal enhancing buff that scales incredibly well.

Vlady, I think most posters on this forum will agree with me - we as the healer community have given you overwhelming evidence about why you're wrong in your assessment about AST.

I'll just throw a few more out there.

Let's assume perfect RNG and say you pull Balance every single possible time. Other cards may give DPS increases but nothing is as direct and powerful as Balance.

Balance is 10% Damage Increase for 15s every 30 seconds. This averages out to about a 5% increase over the course of the entire fight. Say we liberally boost that value to 7.5% for other considerations like Time Dilation, Celestial Opposition, using Balance during a burst phase, etc.

Let's consider two quotes you've posted:

If you time balance just right it can improve a dragoons dps by 400 du ring it's run.

If Balance is a 7.5% DPS increase over the course of a run and that DPS got a 400 DPS boost during that time frame, that DRG would of have to be doing 5333 DPS during their burst phase.

Tell me... what DRG in the current ilvl can do 5333 DPS for 30 seconds in their burst phase?

along with arrow/balance/spear on my brother who plays a machinist he normally clocks another 150-160 dps through an entire run

If Balance is on average 7.5% DPS increase over the course of a run and that DPS got a 150-160 DPS boost, the MCN in question would need to be doing 2,000 to 2,133 over the course of the run.

Again, tell me, what MCN can consistently do 2,000 to 2,133 DPS?

Your move Vlady. Either put up or settle down and admit you're wrong. We don't need to be on your server for you to put out parse numbers and on top of that:

I truly would love to speak to these supposed double AST in Savage 2 and by luck I'm on Balmung so hit me up because I just do not see how even combined they can make up for the lost DPS I provide, let alone the mitigation, healing and buffs I can provide coupled with a WHM. Truly, I would LOVE to speak with them.

I think this poster is still waiting for a response from you, perhaps? I'd like to hear it from his side too if he has joined you for some testing.

[Vlady]

Vlady, I think most posters on this forum will agree with me - we as the healer community have given you overwhelming evidence about why you're wrong in your assessment about AST.

I'll just throw a few more out there.

Let's assume perfect RNG and say you pull Balance every single possible time. Other cards may give DPS increases but nothing is as direct and powerful as Balance.

Balance is 10% Damage Increase for 15s every 30 seconds. This averages out to about a 5% increase over the course of the entire fight. Say we liberally boost that value to 7.5% for other considerations like Time Dilation, Celestial Opposition, using Balance during a burst phase, etc.

Let's consider two quotes you've posted:



If Balance is a 7.5% DPS increase over the course of a run and that DPS got a 400 DPS boost during that time frame, that DRG would of have to be doing 5333 DPS during their burst phase.

Tell me... what DRG in the current ilvl can do 5333 DPS for 30 seconds in their burst phase?



If Balance is on average 7.5% DPS increase over the course of a run and that DPS got a 150-160 DPS boost, the MCN in question would need to be doing 2,000 to 2,133 over the course of the run.

Again, tell me, what MCN can consistently do 2,000 to 2,133 DPS?

Your move Vlady. Either put up or settle down and admit you're wrong. We don't need to be on your server for you to put out parse numbers and on top of that:



I think this poster is still waiting for a response from you, perhaps? I'd like to hear it from his side too if he has joined you for some testing.

Making stuff up alone discredits you and you have argued intelligently in the past to resort to lowering yourself this much Ghis. Please stop while you have any street cred left please.

Double astro in savage 2? I never once said I know of any double astro teams in SAVAGE 2.? I think I am waiting for a response of where you are pulling this made up bs out of your ass.

Also I am starting to think there are cropping up people who are tired of this bs being spewed from the astro sucks threads and are starting to fight back. Oh wait. Go on the Japanese forum that so many people claim that JP is talking about how badly astro is in a bad spot. The original 300 pages of posts were from before the buffs astro's got a few weeks back. The rest post buff seem more around the astrologians artifact gear looks...

[Ghishlain]

Making stuff up alone discredits you and you have argued intelligently in the past to resort to lowering yourself this much Ghis. Please stop while you have any street cred left please.

Double astro in savage 2? I never once said I know of any double astro teams in SAVAGE 2.? I think I am waiting for a response of where you are pulling this made up bs out of your ass.

The poster in question probably misinterpreted this quote:

I double astro heal A1-A4 without issue all the time.

When he made his post. As you claiming to use double AST in Savage, and I know even you wouldn't consider that.

Even I know savage is not kind to double astro.

But hey, this is what you're good at. Avoiding the issue at hand by straw manning one very particular minor flaw in someone's argument. It still didn't change the fact he asked to go along with you to see your capabilities, now does it?

Try again, please. Please, post these parses you have of these Godly DPS increases. Hot potato is still in your hands, Vlady.

====================

Making stuff up alone discredits you . . .

. . .I think I am waiting for a response of where you are pulling this made up bs out of your ass.

You should probably look in a mirror.

[AmiraHargal]

Making stuff up alone discredits you and you have argued intelligently in the past to resort to lowering yourself this much Ghis. Please stop while you have any street cred left please.

Double astro in savage 2? I never once said I know of any double astro teams in SAVAGE 2.? I think I am waiting for a response of where you are pulling this made up bs out of your ass.

Also I am starting to think there are cropping up people who are tired of this bs being spewed from the astro sucks threads and are starting to fight back. Oh wait. Go on the Japanese forum that so many people claim that JP is talking about how badly astro is in a bad spot. The original 300 pages of posts were from before the buffs astro's got a few weeks back. The rest post buff seem more around the astrologians artifact gear looks...

Such irony. A post telling people off for making stuff up and you yourself making stuff up. Patch 3.05 went up on 21 July, and on 21 July the Japanese astrologian thread was on page 68. Right now it's on page 198, so that's like... I don't know, 130 page worth of posts since the buff?

Also, if you think that most of the post is about how astrologian AF looks, you should learn Japanese again from the starts. I know Japanese and 90% of the posts there is saying AST sucks currently and protesting that they can't even got into savage progression(they use learning party in their language for progression), let alone try to master the job in Savage. Should I also post a quote from the Japanese thread too and the translation so you won't make stuff up anymore?

I don't mind you defending AST, and I agree that some people exaggerate the problem currently, but at least get your fact straight?

Edit : Also, the math is fine on paper. Even considering balance or arrow up for 100% of the time(which is statistically close to impossible), the most you can get is 5% increase in DPS for single person. Adding time dilation(which is up every 3 cycle of buff, 90s), and the insignificant celestial opposition(5s increase, which is 33% extension on 5 cycle buff, so that's 6.6% buff), the most you can get is (1.4 * 5%) = around 7% increase in DPS for a single person. so for 100 DPS increase, said person has to deal 1428 DPS for 15s every 30s cycle(again, statistically close to impossible for it to be up 100%).

Do I think the buff is insignificant? Absolutely not. My static's BLM(JP person BTW, so I do know JP pretty well) said he feels really good when he got that 10k damage Fire IV crit under balance, and my MNK and DRG does feel the increase in their DPS for every balance they got. Problem is, balance is only up 8.5% of the time(17% * 50% for draw cooldown) statistically, and in the whole big picture, it's an insignificant increase in DPS overall, not to mention we have to use one of the buff(The Ewer) on ourselves mostly in order to not run out of mana.

Is AST unplayable? no, absolutely not. Is it in critical need of buff for Savage? IMO, yes, and it reflects in the community as a whole since there are a lot of people that think it's much much harder to clear savage if they have an AST compared to the SCH WHM combo. In fact, my static subtly asks me to change to SCH because our WHM is swamped with healing tasks when I go AST and can't help the DPS due to the low Accuracy, and my DPS is too insignificant as AST(around 150-200 DPS) to help that much with DPS.