Oh SE, You completely missed the main problem with endgame crafting/gathering

[chrillix]

The 170 versions of the gear are better by such a ridiculously miniscule amount-like you won't even notice a major difference (aside from the one hundred million gil that you didn't spend), and they're only that if you overmeld grade Vs!

I randomly picked a piece of gear and went with the BSM body
The difference between the i170 HQ melded, and the i180 token piece is 22 craftsmanship and 7 control. I don't call that miniscule.

[Ibi]

Then I hope you enjoy having subpar equipment you cannot properly use for glamouring either, since it cannot be dyed.

Wait, when did they change it so that you couldn't use gear that can't be dyed for glamor? I must have missed that change.

I randomly picked a piece of gear and went with the BSM body
The difference between the i170 HQ melded, and the i180 token piece is 22 craftsmanship and 7 control. I don't call that miniscule.

It's impossible to reach those numbers, even if you used all Grade V materia. The closest you can come is +19 Craftsmanship and +7 Control or +22 Craftsmanship and +2 Control.

If you use all Grade IV materia, you can reach +4 Craftsmanship and +3 Control. At current prices on Hyperion, the materia would cost an average of 1.5 million gil.

[Welsper59]

So you're saying we should wait until that BiS gear is needed, and then complain about how to acquire it? If you don't think it ever will be needed, then why is it even in the game? In either situation there is something drastically wrong with the system.

Well for starters, BiS has never ever been 100% needed to do endgame crafting. Mind you, BiS for crafting generally involves the overmelds, so that's primarily what I'm getting at. Pentamelding is generally NEVER needed unless you're lowballing the materia tier to save on costs of inevitable overmeld failures. I'm speaking from experience on that one, as I've always been able to reach minimum reqs for crafting endgame without going all out BiS melds for every single piece, until 2-star HW gear came out. Despite that, there's still no reason for it. Even when a new tier of minimum reqs comes out, BiS is not going to always be mandatory in every single way. Right now, for example, some melding of 3.0 60 gear + a couple pieces of non-crafted gear from red scrips already puts you at the requirements to do 2-star without food. Again, no point to hitting that level right now unless you actively want to. That right there gives the notion that it isn't mandatory to be in BiS everything unless you actively make it so for yourself.

You don't have to wait, but again... it's not needed and never has been, unless that's your goal, then so be it. It can be a problem to not find reason to get at least some of the current BiS goods, sure, but we're still early into it to really deem it even worth complaining about yet. Even with 2.0, 2-star combat equips weren't exactly game changing to acquire for progression in CoB compared to the much easier to acquire Darklight gear. If anything, the accessories sort of were for some cases, but that's about it.

[Roth_Trailfinder]

Well for starters, BiS has never ever been 100% needed to do endgame crafting. Mind you, BiS for crafting generally involves the overmelds, so that's primarily what I'm getting at. Pentamelding is generally NEVER needed unless you're lowballing the materia tier to save on costs of inevitable overmeld failures. I'm speaking from experience on that one, as I've always been able to reach minimum reqs for crafting endgame without going all out BiS melds for every single piece, until 2-star HW gear came out. Despite that, there's still no reason for it. Even when a new tier of minimum reqs comes out, BiS is not going to always be mandatory in every single way. Right now, for example, some melding of 3.0 60 gear + a couple pieces of non-crafted gear from red scrips already puts you at the requirements to do 2-star without food. Again, no point to hitting that level right now unless you actively want to. That right there gives the notion that it isn't mandatory to be in BiS everything unless you actively make it so for yourself.

BiS cannot be a requirement to create the tools and gear for crafting. The reason should be obvious (Catch-22 : how do you make the BiS gear if it requires BiS gear to create).

But what you are overlooking is .. that 3.0 gear you talk about .. that WAS BiS prior to the new 2 star stuff. And it DOES require massive melding if you want to use it to create the 2 star now BiS stuff.

The expansion giving us a level cap increase threw a monkey into the works. Prior to the level cap going up, if you wanted BiS gear, you pretty much had to have the precious patch's BiS gear to make it. There were a few shortcuts you could take, but that certainly held true as the general guideline.

So, like raiding for new gear (why get new gear from the hardest encounters? Its not going to help you beat the already-beaten encounters, you can do that already) getting BiS crafting/gathering gear is in preparation for the next level of stuff to come along. Always has been, always will be.

Is current BiS needed for anything? Not yet - but once the next set of recipes comes out, which may or may not include a new set of BiS, the current CiS is going to be required to make them.

[Welsper59]

BiS cannot be a requirement to create the tools and gear for crafting. The reason should be obvious (Catch-22 : how do you make the BiS gear if it requires BiS gear to create).

But what you are overlooking is .. that 3.0 gear you talk about .. that WAS BiS prior to the new 2 star stuff. And it DOES require massive melding if you want to use it to create the 2 star now BiS stuff.

The expansion giving us a level cap increase threw a monkey into the works. Prior to the level cap going up, if you wanted BiS gear, you pretty much had to have the precious patch's BiS gear to make it. There were a few shortcuts you could take, but that certainly held true as the general guideline.

So, like raiding for new gear (why get new gear from the hardest encounters? Its not going to help you beat the already-beaten encounters, you can do that already) getting BiS crafting/gathering gear is in preparation for the next level of stuff to come along. Always has been, always will be.

Is current BiS needed for anything? Not yet - but once the next set of recipes comes out, which may or may not include a new set of BiS, the current CiS is going to be required to make them.

There's actually no overlooking on that end. When 2-star was introduced, 3.0 gear was no longer BiS. That being said, you really don't need to do a lot of the more costly melds to be able to do 2-star if you're all right with upgrading to red scrip gear for at least one slot. This isn't very different in hierarchy than how it was with 2.0 crafting when there was the AF BiS potential gear and the optional Patricians (which did require complete overmelds to justify using that over AF).

When the next tier of minimum reqs comes out, we probably still won't need complete BiS, as that has never been the case. If anything, we needed near it for endgame crafting, but there were always alternatives in some way with the gear set itself or with the melds required (which is a large part of what makes it BiS). Also remember that by that time, we'd have had enough time to have upgraded at least some, if not most, of our gear to at least the 180 scrip gear, if not managed to HQ and meld the i170. Which will likely be months from now, since 3.1 isn't likely to bring out gear of higher ilvl tier than what we have now. Absolute BiS will never be required without some form of cheaper alternative in some way, assuming any given moment in FFXIV's history is to be used as an example. Completionists and min/max players will certainly advocate total BiS gear and BiS melding, but that's their prerogative if possible, which isn't something everyone else has to conform to, given how its always been.

[WingsOfAzrael]

ya i'm staying away from leveling my crafting classes to 60/gearing them up till something is done about this

[Aeyis]

I randomly picked a piece of gear and went with the BSM body
The difference between the i170 HQ melded, and the i180 token piece is 22 craftsmanship and 7 control. I don't call that miniscule.

The chest and the main hand are the 2 exceptions to this. For the rest the upgrades arent very big.
Altho amusingly enough considering the degree of the stats on the main hand, and the glamouring use of the chestpiece, those are even more valuable as a result.

Wait, when did they change it so that you couldn't use gear that can't be dyed for glamor? I must have missed that change.

You can also glamour the worst looking item you can find. That's up to you.

There's actually no overlooking on that end. When 2-star was introduced, 3.0 gear was no longer BiS.

You are argueing for arguments sake here. Since noone actually has something literally the moment it is introduced, it was still BiS.

Don't worry,I'm happy.

That's good to hear.

So you're saying we should wait until that BiS gear is needed, and then complain about how to acquire it? If you don't think it ever will be needed, then why is it even in the game? In either situation there is something drastically wrong with the system.

But that makes sense. We cannot have that.

[Makeda]

So I'm Player A, I've spent all my scrips and played the system as it was designed so because I was playing the game and working with the system and one of the players whom saw concerns, I'm punished when they adjust it?

So I'm Player B, I twiddled my thumbs and just let others play with the system, because of their efforts now my scrips are worth more oh what happy day.

You see the issue? You can't adjust it now because you create a rift in the system, an unfair advantage over those who saw issues because they invested in the system and then those who held their scrips.

Why is this a problem that things get easier for the next people to move up the chain?

If the first monkey to ever leave the trees had had this kind of attitude the rest of us would still be up there and his achievement would have never lasted beyond him.

Never look in your neighbor's bowl to make sure he doesn't have as much as you, look in there to make sure he has enough, and if he doesn't, help him fill it.

If the system is flawed, fix it and don't worry that was harder for the ones who went through it first. Fix things because they are broken, rather than sitting on them because its not "fair" that other people have more fun than you.

[Onikimaru]

If you read the rep response in the complaint threads you'll realize that the feedback was "sabotaged" by the reps. The reps said, "we'll convey the feedback that the amount of red script gained are too little to the dev" after all the pages and pages of posts outlining the actual problem.

Yes i know and i also know that they have done this a couple of times.

[chrillix]

Snip

I hadn't considered the actual materia needed. Penta-melding t5's doesn't seem to be a realistic option (especially since we still can't convert gear for T5's!!!), but I could see using 1-2. I guess it's hard for me to sacrifice the option of being able to obtain higher stats when I don't know what the requirements will be for the next patches crafted items.